Trans/Genderqueer/Agender/Questioning Thread

Personally, (gay white cis-male here) I’ve always been interested in ambiguity and saw it as positive rather than problematic but I’d been beginning to feel there were aspects of privilege involved without being able to put my finger on exactly how

this is probably how i felt when i first came across the phenomenon but it irked me in a minor way that i couldn't put my finger on. then a friend of mine (who used the dj name token girl at the time) said she really hated it, and almost felt cheated when she discovered certain djs were actually dudes, which made me think my being irked wasn't so irrational. then i noticed it becoming this weird micro-trend even as female djs were dismissed, marginalised etc etc, and then lauren's article pretty much articulated why it's not necessarily such a positive ambiguity thing.

Thanks, I Am Using Your Worlds, I am out now, for what I hope are blatantly obvious and understandable reasons.

Yeah that makes sense, the poll thread was the first time I saw it mentioned in a negative way and it hadn't really occurred to me that there was anything wrong with it until then. Lauren's article was well done.

It is appreciated BB, see you around

more from lauren's piece:

This micro-trend has been bugging me for a while now, so I called up Miss Modular to ask him why he's called Miss Modular. He was surprisingly forthright about it all. “I chose Miss Modular a long, long time ago before I even started producing”, he insists. “I used it for a blog I used to do. When I first chose it, it didn’t really occur to me that it was implying a gender, but then as I started producing and getting more attention, people used to message me being like: 'Hey, we’re doing a piece on female producers, do you want to get involved?' I’d tell them I was a man and they’d be like, 'Oh, okay, well, we’re not really interested in writing about you anymore'.”

How did that strike you? “I found it frustrating”, he confesses. “Not because I wasn’t getting the attention because I was male, but because I thought the concept of a magazine wanting to run a piece on female producers was weird. As though being female was some kind of handicap for them, and that if they were good at what they do then it should be, extra celebrated?”

How do you feel about being Miss Modular now, considering that? “In all honesty, I found myself a bit caught up in the whole phenomenon of this. I wonder if men working under female names is them purposefully trying to be anonymous; because of some inherent guilt of being a white male producer, and wanting to present yourself as something else. I’ve definitely noticed that since using a female name people have treated me as a novelty, and come to me about my work purely because they think I’m female. Whenever I’ve done a vanity search on Twitter, people are always talking about it.”

Do you really think it's a trend worth talking about, or are we just being hypercritical? “Oh no”, he says. “I think it's a trend that's really starting to snowball now. I’ve met guys who are trying to start out as a DJ, and been like 'Oh yeah, I might call myself this because it’s female', and I’ve been like, 'You’re saying you’ve actively chosen this name because it will present you as female?!' I really should have probed deeper into that at the time." I asked if it opened his eyes to sexism in dance music culture, and he admitted that:

“It’s both fascinating and frustrating. It shows what these gender politics are like. It's been quite an insight. I feel a bit weird being part of it, to be honest. I’d really like to stress that as a guy working under female names, I had no intention of hiding myself behind some kind of veil of femininity. I thought about changing it altogether, or at least doing variations on it, but then I thought that it might be more effective to use this weird situation I've found myself in in order to speak out about the issues that it's brought up, and try and frame it in a more positive way.”

fwiw (not much, i presume), I agree that the assumption by the privileged of the nominal identities of the not is fundamentally squicky, repellent. all i'm saying here is that i'm in no rush to judge "sophie" given that i have no special insight into where the artist in question is coming from. also, as a straight cisdude, i basically refrain from passing judgement on how (even potentially) not-so-straight, not-so-cis people might happen to construct their identities. i don't see that as any of my business. not saying it isn't yours...

also, i'm 100% outside dance music culture, so the special implications of this discussion as it relates in the present moment are likely lost on me. do not mean to comment in any general way on the micro-trend lex & lauren are talking abt.

reminded here of similar squickiness related to men publishing books under feminine pseudonyms

like what, the privileges "normally" accorded your gender aren't enough?

[= igi, will shaddap now]

Relevant to our interests:

http://queerofgender.com/

^^^Looks like this is going to be a super-interesting project

Haaaayyyy, Brooklyn Boihood mention!

https://www.facebook.com/bklynboihood

OK, they look seriously awesome. Reading the blog etc now.

I don't know them personally but a community group I work with would like to partner/collaborate w them on some anti-street harassment initiatives, so that will happen eventually. Pretty excited!

Oh, that sounds like that would be great.

http://elixher.com/watch-undoing-masculinity-by-bklyn-boihoods-ryann-holmes/

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gonna have to wait until I have better bandwidth to watch that but yes, v v v relevant to my interests!

Hey, contendo, would you get the fuck out?

Please don't set him off again, Rev?

I would love for this thread to be a safe space, but safe spaces are impossible to maintain without rigorous moderation we do not have available to us here.

hi, rev. i'm a bit baffled by the trajectory, tbh, but in no mood to make a bad situation worse.

btw, v good post BB

Thanks, Rev.

And jesus christ, the fact that he does not even *get* what the problem is, is the literal proof of the problem.

Like, here we had a dedicated trans/genderqueer/questioning thread, and a conversation where in 2 gay men and 1 genderqueer female person were discussing queering gender, and actually listening to one another, and Using Your Worlds said he learned from me, and I certainly learned from Lex, and there was an actual dialogue going on between gay and/or queer people speaking from their experience to talk about those experiences.

What special kind of arrogance does it take, to not just look at that situation and think to yourself "You know what it needs, this special, set aside thread for issues I admit I don't understand? It needs the CIS HET DUDE POINT OF VIEW. That is what is missing." And continue to flap on about that POV, long after you have been asked, nicely, to please leave it out, until at least one person affected by those issues feels driven from the conversation because it has become too uncomfortable for them.

It adds insult to injury, that you can't even *see* why you doing this might result in hostility, anger, and the withdrawal of any remaining good will for you to remain in this space. Cis-het dudes have the ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD as their playground. Genderqueer people ask for one fucking thread to discuss issues relevant to ourselves, and you gotta have *that* one, too?

Someone emailed me off-board to suggest that a dedicated moderator be assigned to this thread, similar to the way someone works to keep guys from invading the girl thread. I did not want to do that, because I do think that many people who wrestle with issues of othering, queerness, gender, gayness, can both contribute to and learn from this thread, without compromising the "safeness" of the space for genderqueer people. But all it takes is one Cis-Het Dude who cannot just shut up and listen, instead of insisting the conversation be centered around him and his needs, to destroy that balance. You are no longer welcome here, Contenderizer. You destroy something that some of us have both worked hard for, and fucking need in our lives. And for what?

I had almost got back to a place of calm & OK again, and now I'm angry and upset again, and disappointed with myself for being angry and upset, and have to start the whole process again.

And there's sure to be another round of how ~mean~ and "retarded" and "crazy" and what a bitch I am because I have allowed myself to be made angry & upset by an upsetting and angy-making action and it's "toxic" for me to express these feelings instead of keeping quiet and being nice-nice and "giving people the benefit of the doubt" instread of someone who does not belong in a space just recognizing that he is not the expert, and exercising the self control to just leave it alone.

best of luck xpost

What special kind of arrogance does it take, to not just look at that situation and think to yourself "You know what it needs, this special, set aside thread for issues I admit I don't understand? It needs the CIS HET DUDE POINT OF VIEW. That is what is missing."

i saw this thread not as a space in need of my particular POV, but simply as home to an interesting conversation i hoped to join. based on the collective response, i consider myself decisively rebuffed. which is fine; i clearly didn't understand the stakes.

fwiw, i don't think I've ever called you retarded or crazy, bb. then again, my memory is short and ilx is long...

Seriously. What part of "you are no longer welcome here" did you not understand?

was answering the questions you asked me, bb. nothing more.

This is like some fucking game to you, isn't it? Proving that you can just go on invading people's spaces and making ONE LAST POST long after they have asked you to leave. You've made your point. You've thrown your privilege around and proved that you are incapable of understanding the meaning of the word "NO". I've given up even hoping that you will leave of your own accord. Congratulations, you've driven me from my own space, yet again.

Dude, you don't have to get the last word in or explain yourself, just take your ball and go home and I promise you will be alright.

bleep bloop, contendo shitposts in another thread... what else is new? Don't let him rustle your feathers.

This interview with Edie Fake might be of interest:
http://www.tcj.com/rad-queers-edie-fake/

Look, I'm going to be completely honest: I was triggered (someone repeatedly ignoring my increasingly desperate "NO"s triggers rape-induced panic, it's a real thing for me) by this thread yesterday, and really badly. A year and a half of LOLtherapy has helped me get better at handling being triggered (walk away, remove yourself from the situation, perform self care, get help/reassurance from trusted people) but it's still an intensely unpleasant experience to go through. Doubly unpleasant to happen in a space where I thought I could talk, safely, about some pretty deep-level realness.

I don't know whether to abandon the space, and the experiment, or to persist - with stubbornness that will probably recoil back on me - just to assert mine own right to exist. I can't pretend it's not wearing, knowing how hated you are in a space.

Videos are still not working for me, which is frustrating. I really like the idea of the comic based one, but it won't load.

Then there was this, yesterday:

http://the-toast.net/2014/02/07/growing-gender-nonconforming/

Which gave me a lot of pause, because it's a woman who exists in the grey area of "gender noncomforming, but not trans" which made me doubt my right to even assert a genderqueer or trans* identity. But this was the line that made me realise that although I identified with many aspects of her story, this was not *my* story:

To go from Fictional Leading Man Child to Girl Who Felt Confident was such a transition that I wasn’t sure if my old self was real, because I knew the new one was.

Because never, ever, did I really feel that the "new girl self" was entirely real. It never stopped feeling like a drag performance. It was a drag performance I could do, the same way I could get onstage and play guitar, and convince everyone that I was a rock star. But it never stopped feeling like a costume that I had to put on in the morning, and had to take off at night. It took effort and energy to maintain. It was a performance, a pose. (This might be why I'm so attracted to image bands, because I admire all that effort to maintain a pose.)

But then, after experiencing a particular noxious example of toxic masculinity and its entitlements, I always feel this wave of revulsion, of disgust, of thinking "I am not this, I can never *be* this, I *will* never be this!" But I guess the thing I've learned from ILX gender threads is that even cis guys feel this sometimes. (Not that it stops some of them from still performing toxic masculinity in all its noxiousness.)

I still don't know what I am. It feels like the process of looking at others' experiences and going "Nope, not *that*. Nope, not that one either". And never reaching a place of declaring "This. I am this!" But I guess that's what they mean when they say "gender is a journey".

I was a short-haired kid in boy’s clothes who couldn’t be a boy but most certainly was not a girl. I was a person being called “It” on the playground who was getting increasingly depressed

I am not genderqueer in any meaningful sense so this is not my thread & I'll get out shortly but I wanted to nod in recognition at this. Good article, thanks.

Though I liked the term "tomboy" as a kid, bcz when I asked my mum what one was they sounded cool and I liked that they were girls but still called "boy", but most importantly because nobody ever gave me any well-meaning picture books of girly-looking "tomboys". Also I never learned to do the dress-up; got laughed at and spat at even harder when I tried, so I stopped even trying. Too old and fat to bother now tbh. So those parts were not my story either, but I still liked reading them.

Too old and fat to look good in all the awesome styles on dapperq.com as linked in the comments, too :( (totally delighted by these by these reader submissions though. and yes, another comment links to http://fat-tomboy.tumblr.com/ which is more my body shape, though I'm still too short for most of 'em.)

Anyway, sorry, not my thread, going now. Hope I haven't made anyone feel unsafe by butting in cz that was not my intention.

Spacecadet, as someone who is describing their recognition of "tomboy" and its discontents, you are totally welcome here, and thanks for the links. I think you have shown here & on other threads that you are capable of sharing space, and discussing yr experiences without erasing or discrediting others'. This is really all we ask for, I think?

OK, wow...

http://www.dapperq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Bekah.jpg

^^^wore an outfit v v similar to the Dapper on the left yesterday and holy shit, that's it, the rest of my hair is coming off as soon as I can be bothered to go back to the hairdresser. (This is the main reason I don't have shorter hair; pure laziness.)

"January is Celebrity Suit Awareness Month" ... omg I have found my spiritual home.

Oh, shit, wait, no, it's Celebrity Suit AWESOMENESS but I am going to go with Celebrity Suit Awareness instead. Because.

It is really really hard to read, though, when you are not thin and do not have a male-passing body, without feeling basically terrible about the body you do have.

Really, I should just stick with "rugged Cornish surfer dude gone to seed".

Person on the left is KILLING with attitude, even if they were just trying to get something out of their teeth at that instant.

Come on, that's so obviously an attitude duckface!

Yeah, I love it.

The jawline and the sneer are making me feel kinda funny--that is imo why men should never have beards, because I am defenseless against the neck and jaw combination.

Appreciate the dq link and also the "fat butch" stuff because I can only take about 2 screens of "fuck yeah androgynous girls" being no one over age 24 or 115 lbs.

Also cos I just really like this person's style: http://styleenthusiast.tumblr.com/

Sorry, I've been going through bags and bags of old clothes, trying to find the rest of my tie collection (seriously, found them at the bottom of a bag with such a damp problem I had a coughing fit when I opened it. Hope cold water washing will revive them. Liberties ties from the 60s! So amazing!)

I feel kinda weird about perving over a random person who is not a celeb, but their whole look is just so... magnificent. I am just in awe.

I've spent my entire life feeling very, very ~funny~ (one might even say queer, LOL) about women like that. And saying dumb things like "my life would have been so much easier if I were just a lesbian" because duh, the whole sleeping-with-dudes thing put paid to that. But it's actually a huge relief to be able to say that although my feelings about people that present like that are complicated (do I want to look like that? yes? am I sexually attracted to them? that, too) they are also completely legitimate.

(Sorry, I've been having an amazing conversation with a friend who has just blogged up all her feelings on this tonight, on the whole "not queer enough" dilemma, and this is all on my mind.)

Now my 13th listen is almost over, I'm going to go and wash my ties on a Saturday night. Living the life!

I love how this thread is all SRS TRANS* BZNZ one minute, and then "OMG lookit these waistcoats" the next. This pleases me.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/02/13/facebook_custom_gender_options_here_are_all_56_custom_options.html

Hey, that's really cool!

(Still not gonna join Facebook, though.)

Still kind of wish I could just leave it blank tbh

one of my students has recently come out as trans and is getting no support at home. i wish i could tell her mom SHE NEEDS YOUR LOVE TO BE UNCONDITIONAL but that would definitely be outside the scope of my role. i just mostly feel like all i can do is give her support at school the next few years and get her to college someplace with a welcoming LGBT community.

im calling her "her" because she still identifies that way but wants to be male, fwiw

yall have any ideas for a HS teacher?