Will that guy on Jeopardy ever lose?

i mean do you seriously think 'great - some asshole is using fucking game theory to win a trivia game' = 'richard sherman is a thug who set his race back 500 years'???

no i didn't make that false equivalency

now you answer my question

wait do you still think that asian nerds don't get shit unless they resemble long duk dong???

― da croupier

i never thought this, do you still beat yr wife?

then why did you say which while not denying dude is asian and a nerd he hardly fits the stereotype of the asian nerd, you might want to revisit sixteen candles and revenge of the nerds again. ?

bummer for the guy in the 2nd kotaku clip (final jeopardy) who writes down "equalivency" and alex can't even figure out what word he was going for

also, if he's genuinely making the show "less entertaining" it's pretty ironic that this is, like, viral news

Man makes watching jeopardy even less fun than usual! (See Clip)

again i've seen three thinkpieces on this dude so far in kotaku, business insider, the fucking new republic and each of them have been the same fluff piece saying 'look at this dude using game theory to win at jeopardy. here's how he does it. some ppl hate it cuz it makes watching the show less entertaining. entertainment ostensibly being the reason they produce and televise the show.' lex brooks said it was impossible ppl might think someone using game theory in nonacademic setting is a douchebag and that the only reason ppl could have for thinking someone using game theory in a nonacademic setting is a douchebag is anti-asian nerd racism. i pointed out that chu is an asian nerd but that i hadn't seen any evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz he was asian but i had found evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz this is an extremely common reaction to ppl using game theory in a nonacademic setting or just ppl using nonintuitive strategies to win a game - it feels like cheating to them and it makes the person who does it look like a douchebag. again if someone actually wants to make that argument i'll listen to it, but don't make that argument some david brooks malcolm gladwell method come to the conclusion first then gather evidence and if not enough evidence exists to support yr conclusion disqualify any evidence that contradicts it on the basis of yr emotions. or if you do don't expect me to not call you out as a lazy thinker and fraud. as if it needed calling out.

croup (or lex brooks if he's finished his ice cream) do you actually think arthur chu is some asian nerd stepin fetchit figure?

cuz in the clips i saw he seemed like a normal guy, albeit the type of nerd who goes on jeopardy. i didn't think he set his race back 500 years. i'm curious at why this is obviously wrong.

dude, you're smarter than this.

i pointed out that chu is an asian nerd but that i hadn't seen any evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz he was asian but i had found evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz this is an extremely common reaction to ppl using game theory in a nonacademic setting or just ppl using nonintuitive strategies to win a game

you said he didn't fit the "asian nerd" stereotype, as if only those who do suffer from it. again, if you want to assume that race plays no part in someone who studied previous champions and blogs and now gets interviewed on CNN being called "the douchebag using game theory to make the show less entertaining," cool. I don't want to debate whether racism exists. I've made the clear the bit of your post found baffling and ironic.

no i said he didn't fit the asian nerd stereotype to the suggestion that arthur chu is some stepin fetchit figure and that his setting his race back 500 years was the only possible reason he was getting attention and it had nothing to do w/ how he plays the game. again if you want to actually provide anything to back up this argument then do the work and find something but don't tell me that a few 'get a load of how this guy plays jeopardy' fluffpieces are in fact saying 'omg an asian on jeopardy - run!' if only i would put on the glasses. actually take yr argument seriously enough to build it.

Another great post by balls, deep in analysis and thought.

Look, balls, you're an old and I appreciate that - you bring a different perspective to ILX. When somebody starts a poll thread about Billboard in 1987 you're able to do your memorydump where you write 700 words, no line breaks, of what obscure one hit wonders occupied which chart positions at what specific points in time, and how you felt about that then. That's really cool, and you have a capacious memory that not many people are gifted with. It's a valuable contribution to ILX, and all of us here are richer for your sharing.

My experience is that not many people in my generation are familiar with LDD, or Revenge of the Nerds. Not to say that it doesn't stop them from repeating jokes from that era that have passed down through popular culture. But what has been my experience is resentment at Asian kids who "overachieve" and "mess the system up." Can't tell you the number of times I've heard "Why do these Asians fucking study so much, they're ruining it for everyone", often within earshot, before they realize their "Asian friend" is in the room. Maybe you're not too old to remember Amy Chua and the Tiger Mom stuff, maybe not - but there is a general sense is that Asian Americans have 'figured out' the system.

I didn't make any comparison with Richard Sherman, you did. If you're the kind of white guy who only understands racism in the context of the black/white racial dynamic, that's on you. I've started a thread where I try to make sure that a wide variety of experiences of people of color are represented, I've seen you in it so I know you've at least clicked on it. You're welcome to come and have a look.

here's a tip: learn to read. nowhere did i say 'asian nerds got it so easy' or 'asian nerds only catch hell if they're like really ott asian nerds' or 'arthur chu has never caught hell for being an asian nerd, dude can't relate to adrian tomine at all' or 'nobody in america is having a racist reaction to arthur chu'.

sorry xp to croup. i made the comparison to richard sherman to point out what a decidedly racist reaction to someone appearing to be a 'bad sport' or caring about winning too much of exercising poor gamesmanship in a manner not befitting to a gentleman or whatever (which again i could care less about - love arthur chu, love richard sherman, love michael fucking jordan) looks like in 2014. if you want to know what decidedly anti-asian racist entertainment looks like in 2014 i think modern family is airing as we speak. i work and have worked in labs. in the south. i'm very familiar w/ the kinda clueless racist assumption asian nerds have to routinely deal with and i have winced at them and i have probably made them myself (specifically this one guy that used to work w/ me was trying to describe this 'country song' that always came on the radio that he hated and eventually i figured out he was talking about steve miller's 'the joker' and i may have found the whole thing funnier than i would have coming from some white intern), i've had friends that have had 'asian fetishes' which is two kinds of fucked up (arguably three since i've always thought the 'asian girl fetish' is some form of masked vaguely socially acceptable pedophilia w/ it's emphasis on submission and usual accompaniment by some sort of schoolgirl fetish). literally this very afternoon i went to an education class (long story short i'm getting another degree to teach) and listened to white millenials talk about how asians do better than blacks and hispanics in schools cuz of asian culture and asian values that they brought w/ them from 'the orient'. get this literally in the tuesday class we played some ad hoc version of jeopardy to review chapter two. i still don't think finding ppl who use game theory on game shows obnoxious is racist.

fwiw i have no doubt that if i looked at twitter i could find some similarities btw this dude and richard sherman but that seems more depressing than worthwhile so idk, i dont want to go down this route

i did do some thinking on my ride home about optimal final jeopardy wagering so i am happy that we all know who the real nerd is here

i also think the micro/macro distinction balls is making btw the players aim to win and the broader goal for people to enjoy watching or playing the game is interesting - as games become something people watch for entertainment as much as they play its interesting how developers/designers go about making a game less open to exploitation by skillful, competitive players but more interesting to watch/understand. like starcraft II vs dota vs lol and how those games are designed/presented

How did this become the new 'Is This Racist?' thread?

this is ILX

kinda interesting to see Richard Sherman mentioned here. I drew a similarity too, as Chu is another guy who I see being defended all over the internet even though I'm not really sure what he's being defended against. probably just the (internet) circles I'm hanging around in.

yeah most of the references to this guy I see are 'this guy broke jeopardy with game theory!' and not 'omg look at this asshole asian nerd'

tho I am sure if he were an attractive white guy he would be called the billy beane of game shows and have a movie deal in the works

joe morgan everybody

I mean it is rather striking because even if every Jeopardy contestant knows that hopping around categories is the best strategy, very few actually do it, it makes for a disjointed and odd viewing experience, and some of the categories are written thinking that someone's going to go straight through. I watch the show maybe once or twice a week and a guy like this really does stand out.

between the three week break and all the press this has gotten i wonder if someone will try to flip this strategy back on him when they come back

yeah this is interesting to me - other players knowing you are aggressively hunting for the daily doubles means they should be doing the same, but other players knowing you are 'playing for the tie' makes wagering potentially trickier for contestants going into final jeopardy in second place.

I can speak to this: Jeopardy tapes five episodes per day, two days per week - they'll schedule a group of ten contestants from around the country for a given taping day, and use alternates from the LA area if somebody cancels and they need to fill out a day. About the only thing you know entering a taping day is how many games the returning champion has won - the contestants are randomly drawn, and the ones who haven't played yet are waiting in the audience as the day progresses.

So it's likely that Arthur's opponents in later games have seen him play a game or two and know that he plays an unorthodox style (at least the Forrest Bounce part of it, if they're canny enough to recognize a Forrest Bounce - many contestants have no idea how to properly wager in FJ, so the wager-to-tie stuff may not be quite as obvious). Given the lead time of the average Jeopardy episode, which can be as long as four months from taping to airdate, it's impossible for anyone Arthur competes against to know about Arthur-as-Jeopardy-phenomenon. Obviously when they introduce someone as an x-time returning champion it's a little intimidating, but it doesn't imply anything about their style, just their skill level.

I think that people saying that he "broke Jeopardy with game theory" is just dumb. He is applying well known and often used strategies to gain an advantage, I don't see how that constitutes "breaking" Jeopardy. Can't think of any other reason why he would be getting press for this other than that he's Asian. Keep in mind that the person who actually broke Jeopardy with game theory, Roger Craig (a white dude), got about 1/100 of the press, even though he actually won the TOC.

Most people don't do this because the producers strongly encourage you not to. Even though there's nothing they can do about it, I think most people respect the wishes of the show's producers.

To head off any responses, I know that the "play to tie" strategy is not often used, but 90%+ of the articles I've seen have focused solely on his DD hunting.

Also Jeopardy fan culture is SUPER weird - if you look at jboard.tv or even check out #jeopardy on Twitter after an episode's aired, people are sometimes, uh, overly blunt in their assessment of contestants.

The fact that Arthur is willing to wager next to nothing on DD's he doesn't know - that hockey one, where he bets $5 and immediately confesses he doesn't know it - is gonna come off as smug/rub people the wrong way even though it makes perfect sense defensively. (Sports and pop culture stumpers invariably elicit the biggest howls online - they usually aren't the wheelhouse categories of your average contestant, but they're categories with which viewers are very familiar.)

(please forgive my extraneous apostrophe there)

when I find myself able to "run the table" in a sports category while the actual contestants all look absolutely stumped it makes me wonder what I'm doing with my life

I think that people saying that he "broke Jeopardy with game theory" is just dumb. He is applying well known and often used strategies to gain an advantage, I don't see how that constitutes "breaking" Jeopardy. Can't think of any other reason why he would be getting press for this other than that he's Asian. Keep in mind that the person who actually broke Jeopardy with game theory, Roger Craig (a white dude), got about 1/100 of the press, even though he actually won the TOC.

yeah but that was before moneyball/fivethirtyeight etc were super prominent in pop culture

Anyways, the Battle of the Decades tournament this week has been pretty fun.

also these kind of stories have tended to create an ever-worsening feedback loop in the last couple years

yeah but that was before moneyball/fivethirtyeight etc were super prominent in pop culture

Roger Craig was on Jeopardy in 2010 and 2011.

moneyball came out end of 2011 and 538 became a 'thing your mom knows about' in the 2012 election

i just turned on jeopardy hoping to see chu but i guess he's done?

I thought they were doing some kind of tourney and he'll be back at the end of February.

yeah they're doing best of the 80s & 90s for the next few weeks

heh, i did the exact same thing.

Arthur Chu talks to HYPHEN mag about his success:

http://i.imgur.com/A48SNs5.gif

Oh whoops why was that in my copypasta. Anyway: http://hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archive/2014/02/haters-gonna-hater-jeopardy-winner-arthur-chu-bucks-naysayers-and-their-asian-s

I think it makes more sense with the gif

“I pushed myself really hard […] I became a Jeopardy machine, and that’s probably why I acted weird when I was at that taping," says Chu. I told myself that as long as I have confidence that I’m doing the right things and making the right choices […] as long as I did everything I could to win the game and controlled everything that was under my control, I can walk out of there with my head high.”

What sucks in a really evil way is that many viewers of Jeopardy are hating on Arthur and making racist, offensive comments (surprise, surprise!), hurling just about every insulting Asian stereotype at him, most frequently on Twitter. I ask if he thinks it’s because he defies people’s expectations of the “meek and humble Asian,” and he says: “To some degree I think I’m unfortunately living up to a certain Asian stereotype – Asians are supposed to be very nerdy, very competitive in academics and I was raised in that sort of environment. […] They would have reacted differently had it been somebody else. A lot of what they say about me, ‘this guy is creepy,’ ‘this guy is a robot,’ ‘this guy is flat and emotionless’ you can’t deny that it’s there, but I try not to fixate on it. ”

And instead of laying low in the hopes that the hating will eventually go away, Chu asserts himself and responds to the nasty comments on Twitter. In one case, he responded with “The next time you realize you won $37,500, we’ll see how humble you are.” Chu says: “I think the big part of the fact that I can show a different side of myself on Twitter to an extent defies people’s expectations […] it’s easier for me to do it online than on camera. They imagine that I must be this one-dimensional nerd who’s only good at Jeopardy. […] [B]ut you can’t assume that about anybody when you only watch them for 20 minutes on a game show where it’s about winning. […] And I think that [talking back] was a big part of humanizing me to people who were watching Jeopardy and making a different kind of narrative out of it.”

Chu explains very well why he is how he is. It's rare to find a person as intelligent as he is self-aware, and in reality, Chu comes off as a really good guy. “I spent a lot of my life unwilling to take chances and I think that’s a common story for kids who kind of grew up with a certain kind of tiger mom upbringing […]. “ [B]ut at this point in my life, I’ve learned a lot of things will never happen to you if you never take the risk, and failing is not as painful as it seems, the pain you imagine from failure is actually a lot worse than the actual experience itself.”

So I agree with everybody that none of the sites that have published pieces on him have said "look here is this Asian nerd let's laugh at him." But it takes two to tango for something to go viral and I do think that race was a factor in how the internet see this kid even if we all disagree on how much of one it is. To ILX's credit everybody here has been focused purely on the game theory aspect of it and that's great and shame on me for thinking otherwise? Never was my intent to implicate anyone in this thread for having impure motivations, merely wanted people to be aware that there was this other issue. And that's probably the last I'll have to say on it unless I go buy some more ice cream.

I hate to admit that CNN's headline—"Don't Hate the Player, Hate the Game"—is precisely correct.

I don't worry about this guy, he seems totally chill and reasonable and smart and funny and nice. I find all of this more interesting than just watching a game of Jeopardy, and frankly I enjoy the hell out of Jeopardy (not the kids' games though, those are crazy boring).

Didn't realize this dude was from my neck of the woods. Here's a local article: http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/01/31/team-arthur-local-trivia-buff-highlights-the-finer-and-controversial-side-of-jeopardy

Chu trails off at this point and mentions that, maybe, after all, the good folks behind Jeopardy! wouldn't want many of those off-camera antics getting out. He references an ill-timed joke that Trebek cracked about a student shooting up his school after his teacher gave him a measly 98-percent on a test.

Hah this is actually a well-worn joke about studious Asians on both sides of the Pacific

I mean, not the school shooting part. But the part about not getting 100%

Arthur Chu is at least the third guy to win a handful of Jeopardy games using the Forrest Bounce just in the last year. One of them was this super smug guy from Georgia who was a big Ric Flair fan. The wager-to-tie biz is way less common.