Will that guy on Jeopardy ever lose?

the fact that people normally wager an amount that's just above what it takes to beat someone else in final jeopardy, when there is no incentive to knock them out, is basically a hole in the game that should probably be addressed if they actually intended only one person to be able to win

i feel like first we should address the deeper problems with family feud, like the one where none of the rounds matter except for the triple-score round

if you take the first three then you're at least going to sudden death

what makes it worse is that they need to ensure that the triple-score round scores enough to either win (or that it + one sudden death question = 300) so they totally front load it. it's always "top 4 answers" where the top answer is worth like 75. so not only is the top answer usually something very obxious but it only leaves a few difficult ones, meaning the 'steal' team is likely guessing at just one answer. in other words Family Feud can be 'gamed' simply by placing your quickest draw in the 4th postion.

i mean i bet there is a real strong coorelation between the winning team and the team that buzzed in first on triple-score

kinda boggling at while not denying dude is asian and a nerd he hardly fits the stereotype of the asian nerd. is the idea that people who make fun of asian nerds are really discriminating about which asian nerds they have a problem with? that if you talk like john cho nobody'd call you Data?

― da croupier, Wednesday, February 5, 2014 3:44 PM (2 hours ago)

obviously the way he talks and his self-confidence are inconsistent with the "asian nerd" stereotype, this isn't hard to grasp

i feel like first we should address the deeper problems with family feud, like the one where none of the rounds matter except for the triple-score round

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, February 5, 2014 5:26 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah ive always thought how fucked up this is

Actually as the starter of the LONG DUK DONG thread...

Argh people kept saying you weren't you and I thought you'd disappeared! Damn these pranksters.

And to keep on topic, whenever I play any sort of video game version of jeopardy I am always hunting around for the daily double, it kills me when contestants stick to the top down format, or even worse, pick $200 questions when you know time is about to run out and there are thousand dollar questions left. Use your brains, morans.

obviously the way he talks and his self-confidence are inconsistent with the "asian nerd" stereotype, this isn't hard to grasp

no, what's apparently hard to grasp is that when people dare to suggest the undue negative attention someone is getting for daring to google "jeopardy strategies" could stem from racism, pointing out that they don't epitomize the racist stereotype gives an awful lot of credit to racists.

what undue negative attention - there's like four thinkpieces on arthur chu (though that number will rise thank you internet hegemony) and the takes they have have been either this guy is a genius using game theory on jeopardy or this guy is a douchebag using game theory on jeopardy. i've yet to read a this guy is a modern day fu manchu using ancient chinese secrets on jeopardy. btw this split 'genius/douchebag' response is pretty uniform for any person who comes up w/ an innovation (or just decides to use someone elses like arthur chu or billy beane) that pits the individual motivation within the game (you play to win the game) against the group motivation for the game (entertainment, increased efficiency and innovation in the economy, general good times). everybody here has played a game w/ someone who were ultracompetitive and took the game too seriously and ruined the fun of the game. when friends had 'fun' w/ this type w/ monica they weren't indulging in antisemitic stereotypes (as far as i know, maybe i'm wrong, will the real slim mordy plz stand up). if you want to find what a definite racist response to this kind of behavior looks like go back two weeks. personally i love this kind of douchebag behavior. you play to win the game.

The Kotaku bit of this guy goes into how his aspiration is to be a game voice-actor, which is a nice touch.

http://kotaku.com/meet-the-man-who-hacked-jeopardy-1516792430

balls, did you watch that interview with him? how is he being a douchebag? i think you answered your own question ("what undue negative attention?") right there.

obv some people just hate moneyball too, so if you wanna be the guy scoffing that race could possibly play a part fine. Still, "but he speaks so well!" is asinine logic for that claim.

wait do you seriously not understand how someone making something designed to be entertaining less entertaining might come off as a douchebag???

wait do you still think that asian nerds don't get shit unless they resemble long duk dong???

i mean do you seriously think 'great - some asshole is using fucking game theory to win a trivia game' = 'richard sherman is a thug who set his race back 500 years'???

no i didn't make that false equivalency

now you answer my question

wait do you still think that asian nerds don't get shit unless they resemble long duk dong???

― da croupier

i never thought this, do you still beat yr wife?

then why did you say which while not denying dude is asian and a nerd he hardly fits the stereotype of the asian nerd, you might want to revisit sixteen candles and revenge of the nerds again. ?

bummer for the guy in the 2nd kotaku clip (final jeopardy) who writes down "equalivency" and alex can't even figure out what word he was going for

also, if he's genuinely making the show "less entertaining" it's pretty ironic that this is, like, viral news

Man makes watching jeopardy even less fun than usual! (See Clip)

again i've seen three thinkpieces on this dude so far in kotaku, business insider, the fucking new republic and each of them have been the same fluff piece saying 'look at this dude using game theory to win at jeopardy. here's how he does it. some ppl hate it cuz it makes watching the show less entertaining. entertainment ostensibly being the reason they produce and televise the show.' lex brooks said it was impossible ppl might think someone using game theory in nonacademic setting is a douchebag and that the only reason ppl could have for thinking someone using game theory in a nonacademic setting is a douchebag is anti-asian nerd racism. i pointed out that chu is an asian nerd but that i hadn't seen any evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz he was asian but i had found evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz this is an extremely common reaction to ppl using game theory in a nonacademic setting or just ppl using nonintuitive strategies to win a game - it feels like cheating to them and it makes the person who does it look like a douchebag. again if someone actually wants to make that argument i'll listen to it, but don't make that argument some david brooks malcolm gladwell method come to the conclusion first then gather evidence and if not enough evidence exists to support yr conclusion disqualify any evidence that contradicts it on the basis of yr emotions. or if you do don't expect me to not call you out as a lazy thinker and fraud. as if it needed calling out.

croup (or lex brooks if he's finished his ice cream) do you actually think arthur chu is some asian nerd stepin fetchit figure?

cuz in the clips i saw he seemed like a normal guy, albeit the type of nerd who goes on jeopardy. i didn't think he set his race back 500 years. i'm curious at why this is obviously wrong.

dude, you're smarter than this.

i pointed out that chu is an asian nerd but that i hadn't seen any evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz he was asian but i had found evidence that ppl found his method of gameplay made watching the game less entertaining cuz this is an extremely common reaction to ppl using game theory in a nonacademic setting or just ppl using nonintuitive strategies to win a game

you said he didn't fit the "asian nerd" stereotype, as if only those who do suffer from it. again, if you want to assume that race plays no part in someone who studied previous champions and blogs and now gets interviewed on CNN being called "the douchebag using game theory to make the show less entertaining," cool. I don't want to debate whether racism exists. I've made the clear the bit of your post found baffling and ironic.

no i said he didn't fit the asian nerd stereotype to the suggestion that arthur chu is some stepin fetchit figure and that his setting his race back 500 years was the only possible reason he was getting attention and it had nothing to do w/ how he plays the game. again if you want to actually provide anything to back up this argument then do the work and find something but don't tell me that a few 'get a load of how this guy plays jeopardy' fluffpieces are in fact saying 'omg an asian on jeopardy - run!' if only i would put on the glasses. actually take yr argument seriously enough to build it.

Another great post by balls, deep in analysis and thought.

Look, balls, you're an old and I appreciate that - you bring a different perspective to ILX. When somebody starts a poll thread about Billboard in 1987 you're able to do your memorydump where you write 700 words, no line breaks, of what obscure one hit wonders occupied which chart positions at what specific points in time, and how you felt about that then. That's really cool, and you have a capacious memory that not many people are gifted with. It's a valuable contribution to ILX, and all of us here are richer for your sharing.

My experience is that not many people in my generation are familiar with LDD, or Revenge of the Nerds. Not to say that it doesn't stop them from repeating jokes from that era that have passed down through popular culture. But what has been my experience is resentment at Asian kids who "overachieve" and "mess the system up." Can't tell you the number of times I've heard "Why do these Asians fucking study so much, they're ruining it for everyone", often within earshot, before they realize their "Asian friend" is in the room. Maybe you're not too old to remember Amy Chua and the Tiger Mom stuff, maybe not - but there is a general sense is that Asian Americans have 'figured out' the system.

I didn't make any comparison with Richard Sherman, you did. If you're the kind of white guy who only understands racism in the context of the black/white racial dynamic, that's on you. I've started a thread where I try to make sure that a wide variety of experiences of people of color are represented, I've seen you in it so I know you've at least clicked on it. You're welcome to come and have a look.

here's a tip: learn to read. nowhere did i say 'asian nerds got it so easy' or 'asian nerds only catch hell if they're like really ott asian nerds' or 'arthur chu has never caught hell for being an asian nerd, dude can't relate to adrian tomine at all' or 'nobody in america is having a racist reaction to arthur chu'.

sorry xp to croup. i made the comparison to richard sherman to point out what a decidedly racist reaction to someone appearing to be a 'bad sport' or caring about winning too much of exercising poor gamesmanship in a manner not befitting to a gentleman or whatever (which again i could care less about - love arthur chu, love richard sherman, love michael fucking jordan) looks like in 2014. if you want to know what decidedly anti-asian racist entertainment looks like in 2014 i think modern family is airing as we speak. i work and have worked in labs. in the south. i'm very familiar w/ the kinda clueless racist assumption asian nerds have to routinely deal with and i have winced at them and i have probably made them myself (specifically this one guy that used to work w/ me was trying to describe this 'country song' that always came on the radio that he hated and eventually i figured out he was talking about steve miller's 'the joker' and i may have found the whole thing funnier than i would have coming from some white intern), i've had friends that have had 'asian fetishes' which is two kinds of fucked up (arguably three since i've always thought the 'asian girl fetish' is some form of masked vaguely socially acceptable pedophilia w/ it's emphasis on submission and usual accompaniment by some sort of schoolgirl fetish). literally this very afternoon i went to an education class (long story short i'm getting another degree to teach) and listened to white millenials talk about how asians do better than blacks and hispanics in schools cuz of asian culture and asian values that they brought w/ them from 'the orient'. get this literally in the tuesday class we played some ad hoc version of jeopardy to review chapter two. i still don't think finding ppl who use game theory on game shows obnoxious is racist.

fwiw i have no doubt that if i looked at twitter i could find some similarities btw this dude and richard sherman but that seems more depressing than worthwhile so idk, i dont want to go down this route

i did do some thinking on my ride home about optimal final jeopardy wagering so i am happy that we all know who the real nerd is here

i also think the micro/macro distinction balls is making btw the players aim to win and the broader goal for people to enjoy watching or playing the game is interesting - as games become something people watch for entertainment as much as they play its interesting how developers/designers go about making a game less open to exploitation by skillful, competitive players but more interesting to watch/understand. like starcraft II vs dota vs lol and how those games are designed/presented

How did this become the new 'Is This Racist?' thread?

this is ILX

kinda interesting to see Richard Sherman mentioned here. I drew a similarity too, as Chu is another guy who I see being defended all over the internet even though I'm not really sure what he's being defended against. probably just the (internet) circles I'm hanging around in.

yeah most of the references to this guy I see are 'this guy broke jeopardy with game theory!' and not 'omg look at this asshole asian nerd'

tho I am sure if he were an attractive white guy he would be called the billy beane of game shows and have a movie deal in the works

joe morgan everybody

I mean it is rather striking because even if every Jeopardy contestant knows that hopping around categories is the best strategy, very few actually do it, it makes for a disjointed and odd viewing experience, and some of the categories are written thinking that someone's going to go straight through. I watch the show maybe once or twice a week and a guy like this really does stand out.

between the three week break and all the press this has gotten i wonder if someone will try to flip this strategy back on him when they come back

yeah this is interesting to me - other players knowing you are aggressively hunting for the daily doubles means they should be doing the same, but other players knowing you are 'playing for the tie' makes wagering potentially trickier for contestants going into final jeopardy in second place.

I can speak to this: Jeopardy tapes five episodes per day, two days per week - they'll schedule a group of ten contestants from around the country for a given taping day, and use alternates from the LA area if somebody cancels and they need to fill out a day. About the only thing you know entering a taping day is how many games the returning champion has won - the contestants are randomly drawn, and the ones who haven't played yet are waiting in the audience as the day progresses.

So it's likely that Arthur's opponents in later games have seen him play a game or two and know that he plays an unorthodox style (at least the Forrest Bounce part of it, if they're canny enough to recognize a Forrest Bounce - many contestants have no idea how to properly wager in FJ, so the wager-to-tie stuff may not be quite as obvious). Given the lead time of the average Jeopardy episode, which can be as long as four months from taping to airdate, it's impossible for anyone Arthur competes against to know about Arthur-as-Jeopardy-phenomenon. Obviously when they introduce someone as an x-time returning champion it's a little intimidating, but it doesn't imply anything about their style, just their skill level.

I think that people saying that he "broke Jeopardy with game theory" is just dumb. He is applying well known and often used strategies to gain an advantage, I don't see how that constitutes "breaking" Jeopardy. Can't think of any other reason why he would be getting press for this other than that he's Asian. Keep in mind that the person who actually broke Jeopardy with game theory, Roger Craig (a white dude), got about 1/100 of the press, even though he actually won the TOC.

Most people don't do this because the producers strongly encourage you not to. Even though there's nothing they can do about it, I think most people respect the wishes of the show's producers.

To head off any responses, I know that the "play to tie" strategy is not often used, but 90%+ of the articles I've seen have focused solely on his DD hunting.

Also Jeopardy fan culture is SUPER weird - if you look at jboard.tv or even check out #jeopardy on Twitter after an episode's aired, people are sometimes, uh, overly blunt in their assessment of contestants.

The fact that Arthur is willing to wager next to nothing on DD's he doesn't know - that hockey one, where he bets $5 and immediately confesses he doesn't know it - is gonna come off as smug/rub people the wrong way even though it makes perfect sense defensively. (Sports and pop culture stumpers invariably elicit the biggest howls online - they usually aren't the wheelhouse categories of your average contestant, but they're categories with which viewers are very familiar.)

(please forgive my extraneous apostrophe there)

when I find myself able to "run the table" in a sports category while the actual contestants all look absolutely stumped it makes me wonder what I'm doing with my life

I think that people saying that he "broke Jeopardy with game theory" is just dumb. He is applying well known and often used strategies to gain an advantage, I don't see how that constitutes "breaking" Jeopardy. Can't think of any other reason why he would be getting press for this other than that he's Asian. Keep in mind that the person who actually broke Jeopardy with game theory, Roger Craig (a white dude), got about 1/100 of the press, even though he actually won the TOC.

yeah but that was before moneyball/fivethirtyeight etc were super prominent in pop culture