jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

well there's pollution in the Grand Canyon due to Los Angeles, so there's not many places that are free from it even if they are free of polluters in the immediate area

But Los Angeles pollution is much lighter than it was 30 and more years ago. Are there LA basin figures for asthma rates?

pollution is lighter but iirc dust-based air pollution is on the rise due to drained water basins inland

Does that affect the LA basin or the Eastern Cal (and points further East) areas? I didn't think that the Owens Valley problems affected us.

just using LA->Grand Canyon as example that air pollution doesn't respect metropolis boundaries

I was just wondering if the world's overall air quality is worse than it was many years ago, because cars everywhere are getting cleaner. I have heard the usual horror stories about Chinese air pollution, and I'd guess that any country desparate to increase its industrialization may have worse air than it used to, but do these effects contribute to the increases in asthma in the US and Western Europe? Or is it some other factor?

pure speculation, but couldn't air pollutants from 30 odd years ago make their way into soils/water/animals and thus still be causing/contributing to things?

i suspect pollutants to tend stick around. plus more huge industrial cities are around because there are more people. Somewhat related: I was reading a UN chart on population growth and their high end estimate for the year 2300 is iirc 36 billion people. The low end is 2 billion.

36? I always figured we'd approach some asymptotic limit long before that

That recent article on the hypothesis that levels of lead pollution might explain violent crime seems vaguely relevant here? partly because its very neat 23-year delay seems to suggest that this particular pollutant doesn't stick around.

high end estimate for the year 2300 is iirc 36 billion people. The low end is 2 billion.

What's scary is that while the first number seems utterly ridiculous, the second number seems totally, scarily plausible.

x-post to Granny.
I assume asthma is caused by airborne stuff rather than food, but I'm no doctor.

There was talk here a few months ago about a UN study that predicted 9.6 billion by 2050, but I thought there was some prediction of a gradual leveling off afterwards. I do think at some point well before 2300 the population will decline, related to water scarcity.

people will eventually get depressed and just stop doin' it

I assume so too but you never know (chronic inflammation in any area of the body can have many causes, rather than just those you'd think would affect the organ/system in question), and sorry I kinda switched there from talking about asthma cause(s) specifically to wondering if "hooray there's less pollution today!" overlooks possible lasting effects from air pollution of yesteryear.

xp

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/30/peanut-allergy-study-hopes-cure-children

was expecting that to mention theory of hypersanitization being a cause of uptick

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/298974/2/Mysterious-polio-like-illness-affects-kids-in-California

what is this??

Jesus Chrisy how terrifying

That's pretty frightening. If it's been going on since 2012, why has the story not gotten more traction?

They're describing acute flaccid paralysis, which can be due to a poliomyelitis caused by non-polio enteroviruses like Coxsackie (they mentioned hand-foot-mouth disease). The article doesn't say but I'm sure they've excluded Lyme and West Nile Virus (neither of which are common in CA IIRC).

AFP is rare but not unheard of. In theory, an epidemic could develop if a particular strain of non-polio enterovirus is going around. Children are susceptible to this kind of thing with enteroviruses, most adults would just have a flu-like illness without neurological involvement.

Here's a couple of medical articles reviewing viral causes of AFP...
...in Hong Kong (247 cases in 15 years): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24528511
...in India (2186 cases in 2 years): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23630606

This isn't really on-topic for this thread as there'd be no way of vaccinating for (or refusing vaccination for) the causative enterovirus yet.

thank you!

but, just to clarify, there is a virus named after Coxsackie NY?

History

The coxsackieviruses were discovered in 1948–49 by Dr. Gilbert Dalldorf, a scientist working at the New York State Department of Health in Albany, New York.

...

The virus family he discovered was eventually given the name Coxsackie, from Coxsackie, New York, a small town on the Hudson River where Dalldorf had obtained the first fecal specimens.

Coxsackie, NY: Come for the poop, stay for the paralysis.

Plasmon as ever, your lucid and qualified medical commentary on threads like this is greatly appreciated by me, for one.

me too (two)!

I third this motion

have run into TWO of these smug assholes on FB in just the last day. first one I was kind of assholish to, second I had to be respectful as it was the relative of a friend. but it's pointless to even debate with these people anyway as this is how the argument goes:

1) Anti-vac Doofus uses anecdotal data to suggest vaccines are either unnecessary, or cause autism
2) Respondent supplies article from CDC showing the risks of non-vaccination
3) Anti-vac Doofus says "HOW CAN WE TRUST ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT SAYS? THEY'RE IN CAHOOTS WITH BIG PHARMA"
4) Respondent supplies another article from medical experts indicating the same thing
5) Anti-vac Doofus says "CLEARLY THEY'RE ALSO ON THE TAKE FROM BIG PHARMA"
6) Anti-vac Doofus submits article supporting their side, usually from some Geocities looking website with poorly sourced data
7) Respondent points this out
8) Anti-vac Doofus calls respondent a sheep and smugly rides off on a camel

posts that effortlessly sum up the internet

Their new schtick is apparently "we're not against vaccines, we're against TOXIC vaccines"

they use intimidation to get followers. ie, "become well-researched, reading all sides, and you'll see our side". 'oh well I don't want to come across as uneducated or stupid! what should I read?'

"Google 'vaccine mercury mad cow disease babies' and then tell me how you explain that if vaccines are so safe ok?"

As one commenter on an article I just read responded to a "nuanced" anti-vaccer, "What exactly is the middle ground between being vaccinated and not being vaccinated?"

Eh, there are some people who stagger vaccines rather than give them all at once. Also some people who say yes to some vaccines and no to others. I was just talking to someone whose husband works in a hospital, and was required to get the flu shot, but then forbade his family from getting it. Go figure, this past season his wife and child both got the flu, and he had to take several days off from work to care for them. What a doofus.

this last guy I argued with claimed that getting some of these diseases like measles was a normal part of childhood and it strengthened your immune system to have measles and beat it rather than never getting it, and dismissed those that died from measles as part of natural selection, ie "kids are gonna die choking on a Snickers bar, whatyagonnado?"

there's no science whatsoever behind the "staggered vaccine" idea, and there are at least minor drawbacks to it.

I'm pretty sure the "middle ground" is benefiting from herd immunity while doing your damnedest to selfishly undermine it.

there's no science whatsoever behind the "staggered vaccine" idea, and there are at least minor drawbacks to it.

Tell it to someone who does it.

dismissed those that died from measles as part of natural selection, ie "kids are gonna die choking on a Snickers bar, whatyagonnado?

I've always found this view to be abhorrent but now that I have a kid, this gives me the rage.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/thanks-anti-vaxxers-you-just-brought-back-measles-in-nyc.html

Why not just send your kid outside without clothes and feed him only one meal a day -- good for the immune system! Natural selection will eliminate the weak among us anyway.

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tomjerry.jpg

Really we should be injecting kids with the Ebola or Marburg virus. Toughen 'em right up.

people used to have more kids, if jonny got measles or suzy got kicked by a cow you had four more, so it's cool

jeez suzy got kicked by a cow??

not our suzy, I think

I dunno if this'd actually work but anti-bad-science writer/doctor Ben Goldacre has a book called 'Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients' which sounds right up the street of these kind of people but is totally pro-science, just analysing how the system is actually broken and can be fixed (by better use of/more open science, I assume) (I haven't actually read it)
so maybe it could be a mind-changing portal, although I expect he slags off snake-oil woo in the first paragraph so mileage may vary.

IIRC vaccines aren't even that profitable for big pharma

big pharma IS super shady and greedy and probably totally has the govt in their pockets... it just doesn't change the fact that an insane amount of children used to die of diseases that we've made virtually extinct through vaccinations.

i guess next they'll be telling us that hardly anyone ever died from measles or polio or whatever and that it's some big governmental coverup of history.

yeah what I was getting at is if anti-vaxxer types started reading the book with a false sense of security it might learn them something?