Tortoise: Classic or Dud

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Dud. At a certain moment when post-hardcore / stagnating "indie rock" was tapped out, Tortoise came along and made every bad choice in moving beyond their roots. The choice to go instrumental; the academic "appreciation" for and "tasteful" emulation of a swath of very safely canonical-type avant-garde/underground/jazzish/dubby musics, each becoming drained of its life-blood when brought into the Tortoise mix; the pretentious "professionalism" of the band (whose members each seemed to want to be known as instrumental "players" in their own right); the deliberate "professionalism" of the production (from within the band itself); the feigned "unprofessionalism" of the TNT cover art; the messing with Stereolab (see above); the patent lack of fun in both their recordings and their live shows; the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago;---ACK ACK ACK! Yeah, they really bug the hell out of me. I sense that their intentions are generally good and yet the result is so bad--maybe that's what really bothers me. I mean it seems like they genuinely care about the music they like and which influences them, they have laudable DIY tendencies in wanting to also be repsonsible for the production side (thinking of McEntire here), they have some kind of ambition to push themselves into new directions--and yet, and yet all these bad things people say about them seem true, and I don't enjoy them a whit. So right but SOOOO wrong.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 03:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

and Ned, why don't you go flounce off?

Shan't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 04:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 07:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch. It was ARGGGH-ifying.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 15:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch

Natch.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

That soundtracky sounding song on Millions... has got a pretty nice ambience to it, but the rest... eh.. pretty boring.

― Ian Johnson, Sunday, 19 January 2003 22:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

seven months pass...

I'm not that familiar with their other albums, but I listened to TNT again the other night and had forgotten just how pretty it is.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

I agree with the folks who sight their singles and remixes -- and yes, i too frequent albums from Keith Jarret (not boring, but rather, emotionally paced). Nobody has yet mentioned the In The Fishtank E.P. completed with the Ex -- see "Pleasure As Usual" for an engagingly vocal amalgam of the two.

― christoff (christoff), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:15 (twenty years ago) link

They're one of the most organic bands I can think of right now, in terms of sound-textures and composition. Like, I've yet to hear them play something that sounds out of place within the context of each piece. They're all very good at playing into each other (as opposed to playing off of each other). I also have never been too keen on Standards, but otherwise they're the fuckin' poo diggitty as far as I'm concerned. They're wonderful morning-sex music.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:42 (twenty years ago) link

Standards is my favourite that I own to be honest.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 21:36 (twenty years ago) link

i'm listening to the 6th song on the directions in music album... wow.

anyone listened to this lately? i think it's aged much better than the tortoise stuff.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:30 (twenty years ago) link

mixwise, this song is the perfect bridge between tortoise's "his second storey island" and "gamera"/"goriri" (i'm pretty sure both bundy brown-era tortoise material)...

the drone dissolving into the concrete then the emergence of the acoustic passages and finally the abstract jungle beats into reverse synth bleeding.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:38 (twenty years ago) link

my woman used to love that Directions in Music album, but i sold it......sux to be her

― JasonD (JasonD), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:43 (twenty years ago) link

The four minutes or so of Djed leading up to the tape fuck-up, or whatever one chooses to call it, are utterly classic IMO. Too bad it wasn't a standalone song.

― Damian (Damian), Thursday, 18 September 2003 11:01 (twenty years ago) link

These days, I'm constantly taken aback by how many new jazz albs these days borrow bits and pieces of the Tortoise 'sound' (Jaga Jazzist are the most obv example)

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 18 September 2003 17:42 (twenty years ago) link

If Tortoise were actually a jazz band, I think they might be the Brian Blade Fellowship (or maybe it's just the Jeff Parker crossover talking).

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2003 18:06 (twenty years ago) link

three months pass...

TNT is indeed very pretty - I am listening to it right now and it is stunning.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago) link

They do I cover of Robert Ashley's In Sara mumble mumble mumble? That's a little intriguing..

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago) link

yeah i wondered was that a cover or "inspired by" or what - in fact it was someone mentioning sara mumble mumble in another thread today that made me dig this out again.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago) link

I haven't heard it, but saw that they did it and the title had to be more than a coincidence. (I describe it the way I do partly because I can't remember the exact wording of the title, but Ashely does do I lot of mumbling. I like his speaking style though, overall. I once overheard him talking at a music festival event: "That is [pause] sublime." The way he said it was wonderful)

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:44 (twenty years ago) link

Aha - i have never heard it and now i want to. The tortoise versione is called "In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven there were Women and Men" as opposed to "...there were Men and Women" in the Ashley version.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago) link

It's not really great or anything, but worth hearing. My favorite Ashley doesn't seem to be available on CD. It's Perfect Live/Private Parts: The Bar.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago) link

the Ashley piece is a setting of the poem by John Barton Wolgamot. the Tortoise piece could be a direct reference to the poem, who knows.

Rockist: 'The Bar' is available on the three disc version of Perfect Lives, but it's a slightly different recording. That is an exceptional piece. He should get a whole thread, I'm an Ashley fanatic.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 00:14 (twenty years ago) link

I want the original recording though. I think I heard the new one and didn't like it. (I'm very reactionary about recordings of old experimental favorites.) At least I still have my vinyl copy in storage.

I didn't know the Ashley piece was based on someone else's poem.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:26 (twenty years ago) link

you're right, the original 'The Bar' is better. it's a fantastic record. don't know what's holding up the CD reissue, it'd fit on one disc with ashley's 'music word fire' disco 12" (which many people hate, but I don't).

and the only thing the tortoise piece has in common with the ashley piece is the namedrop. still no need to listen to tortoise.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:43 (twenty years ago) link

Is that "Music Word Fire" the one that goes something like I coo coo you coo coo, etc. I don't think I liked it at first, but I think I got to like it.

But I bought some later Ashley that didn't hook me in, so I've kind of backed off from his work. (I can't think of the title right now, but it was a large-scale opera type thing.) Also, "The Bar" is really my favorite part of that Perfect Lives work.

I guess one of us should start an Ashley thread. You know more than I do, but if you start one some time, I'll chime in, maybe think of something new to say (maybe not).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:54 (twenty years ago) link

next time I gain the courage to start another thread that'll sink to the bottom three posts later, it'll be an Ashley thread. but I'm unreliable, I've crossed the threshhold and I can even appreciate most of the operas. But 'Automatic Writing', 'The Wolfman', and the hidden secret 'Yellow Man With Heart With Wings'.

didn't mean to be anti-Tortoise above, they certainly were better than many things in the 90's.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:16 (twenty years ago) link

ubuweb has a PDF of Wolgamot's poem online here, along with the liner notes. I have the Cramps edition, had never read the story behind the poem; wow.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:55 (twenty years ago) link

I read that with amazement, but by the end I was wondering if this whole story is a prank. You're sure it's legit?

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:37 (twenty years ago) link

who knows, stranger things. in the end there's only the poem itself really.

frustrating to realize only the rough tape survived. think of what they could have done with a more detailed mixdown.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:40 (twenty years ago) link

UBUWeb is incredible - i could spend 2 lifetimes looking through it. My frind has a long prose-poem on it here if you are interested.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:41 (twenty years ago) link

i think its really good and ill look forward to reading that Wolgamot Poem, thanks.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:43 (twenty years ago) link

four months pass...

I finally listened to "Djed" and it's not awful. I think I would have liked it more if I heard it back in the 80's than I do now (not that it was there to be heard then). The minimalist/Krautrock/prog. blend is less appealing to me now than it was then. I like something a little more rhythmically articulated. (I don't know if that's really the right word, but I like how it sounds.) But, this is okay. I could see myself possibly getting to like it more.

I don't see what the big deal with the "tape crash" thing is.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I like the marimba (or whatever it is).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:50 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not sure I need to buy it though.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:54 (nineteen years ago) link

I got It's All Around You the other day. Meh. Works if I'm in the right mood.

― Pack Yr Romantic Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 31 May 2004 02:01 (nineteen years ago) link

I still like it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 31 May 2004 03:28 (nineteen years ago) link

Surprisingly, Tortoise put on one of the funnest shows I've ever attended.

― Mike Stuchbery, Monday, 31 May 2004 11:38 (nineteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I listened to Millions Now Living again last night. Some of it is too fusion-y for me. One track was surprisingly similar to Ralph Lundsten (not a name I see mentioned too much), with some space rock mixed in.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:37 (nineteen years ago) link

I heard that "Salt the Skies" track from the new album and really liked it, so I guess I'll have to buy it now.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:43 (nineteen years ago) link

"Salt the Skies" may be the best track on It's All Around You. I definitely thought so the first few times I heard the album -- but now I'm not so sure, since others have grown on me. It's a pleasant album, but I can't get excited about it the way I got excited about Millions and TNT.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:08 (nineteen years ago) link

hmmm, maybe I should just see if there's a single.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I still like the album...actually it's hard for me to think of individual songs on Tortoise albums, if I'm in the mood to listen to them I usually end up listening to the whole thing.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:41 (nineteen years ago) link

monumental DUD. bored out of my skull listening to Tortoise-- and I like Stars of the Lid, Labradford, and Windy and Carl!

― King Kobra (King Kobra), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

King Kobra is secretly me!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 19:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I hear a lot of late Zappa (like There's a Ship Arriving Too Late. . .) in the post-rock I've heard (mostly five second samples, but still), when it isn't overtly Krautish. Even that whole marimba + funny time signature thing. Maybe math rock more than post-rock. (No post-rock until after you've finished you're math-rock!) Eisbar?

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 17 June 2004 12:14 (nineteen years ago) link

And that's what I wanted to say.

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 17 June 2004 12:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I think these guys are all listening to Zappa, Ralph Lundsten, and Mars Everywhere, aside from the obvious Neu and Harmonia and Cluster and various German law firms.

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 17 June 2004 12:17 (nineteen years ago) link

two years pass...

new tour! i wonder if they are still writing new songs. i didn't care much for IAAY but i love the rest of their discography. still, i'm curious to see where they go. not really feeling the supporting acts... they always seem to tour with such mediocre artists.

Dates:

06-14 Columbus, OH - Wexner Center
06-15 Manchester, TN - Bonnaroo
06-16 Lawrence, KS - Granada Theatre *
06-18 Denver, CO - Bluebird Theatre
06-20 Phoenix, AZ - Rhythm Room
06-22 San Francisco, CA - Independent
06-23 San Francisco, CA - Independent
06-26 Seattle, WA - Neumos
07-01 Chicago, IL - Metro
07-03 Toronto, Ontario - Lee's Palace
07-05 Boston, MA - Museum of Fine Art
07-08 New York, NY - Webster Hall #

* with Hot Chip
# with Kieren Hebden, Steve Reid

― lfam, Thursday, 22 February 2007 19:17 (seventeen years ago) link

it would be cool if they toured with some other chicago jazz types.

― lfam, Thursday, 22 February 2007 19:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 306 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

just wait until the better business bureau finds out about these broken links, they'll have a thing or two to say to these nincompoops

― intheblanks, Tuesday, 17 January 2023 19:26 (one year ago) link

When I think of tortoise I can only think of how I have the vinyl of TNT and wonder if I can get money for it

― | (Latham Green), Tuesday, 17 January 2023 19:47 (one year ago) link

They’re quietly gearing up to release new music, and this is part of that. (Tour and reissue, not links that briefly don’t work.)

― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 17 January 2023 20:24 (one year ago) link

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