SHISTY - "I Luv U"

Jesse Colin Young is NYHC

i reckon americans might well believe that last statement john...

But in your original post you were pretty much doing the same thing bludd

the point being Dave that Dizzee may be a new direction in hiphop or a new mixture of elements but it's still hiphop, and saying so doesn't justify your hauling out the tired old "Americans will never understand!" bit

haha - "Americans will never understand our version of their music!"

the thing is i haven't heard an argument for it being hip hop apart from "he wears american clothes" and "he raps".

"Those yanks! They wouldn't know hiphop if it came 'round for tea!"

hiphop and roxanne comparisons are valid but useless. unless you have a uh, personal interest in asserting US primacy over everything? otherwise like sterling said: you are dragging. everything. down

yeah sean you are so fucking REAL nigga! suck a dick, toy. obv feminism is not my #1 criteria in liking records but this is an answer record, a reinterpretation and ok 'feminism' is a huge maybe misleading reduction of what shisty's doing but i just dont think this enlightens dizzie's complicit angry original any further. as an 'isolated' track like dave sez i think it's a A BIT DUFF. ok!

one d in 'bludd', blud

Sean does one really have to make the case for thirty trumpets, ten cornets, ten trombones and three tubas being a brass band? Dizzee's rapping over beats, that they're skittery beats doesn't make it So Completely Revolutionary That We Cannot Call It Hiphop! Hiphop's a HUGE culture, room for all manner of stuff. I think the issue is that English Diz fans would prefer to think of him of wholly "ours" and not part of an essentially American tradition.

I mean, I'm not saying uk gutter grime guh-guh-garage garridge gay-raj is "just hip-hop": I agree it's 'something new/something exciting', I'm partially convinced it's the 'something new/something exciting' (I'd blame jess and simon r., but really I blame dem lott and whoever I've downloaded garage comps off of soulseek from)(er, spencer then), but to pretend it isn't, in any way whatsoever, nuh-uh. nuh. uh., no siree bob england's hip-hop is absurd.

What Blount said.

I mean, I love american hip-hop (love african hip-hop, which sounds alot more different than american hip-hop to my ears than garage)(hit or miss on italian hip-hop), but one of the thing's that draws me to uk garage, and didn't draw me to, er, earlier english hip-hop (ie. betty boo) is that it is it's own thing, isn't "just" hip-hop made by english people. it's something new, but let's not refuse to connect dots for the sake of her majesty the queen.

"Dizzee's rapping over beats, that they're skittery beats doesn't make it So Completely Revolutionary That We Cannot Call It Hiphop"

mc top buzz is hip hop?

sizzla?

what is 'rapping'?

and agreed this record doesn't touch the original (answer records either fall way short or blow the original away - not alot of middle ground), but I'm such a huge fan of answer records (I put "Shorty Swings Both Ways" on a "whose ten is this?") that this record was spotted many points before I even heard the thing.

what are beats?
what is music?
what is sound?

I mean if someone release a record called "Right Hurr" right now I can guarantee you I'd download it stat

all dancehall/garage/hardcore = hip hop ambrose coz america = fount of all musical innovation donchaknow...

right, that's what anyone on this thread said

unless you wanna argue the diff between uk garage and us hip-hop is uk garage is "more" influenced by dancehall (in which case read more billboard)

just like anyone said english people won't call garage music hip hop due to nationalistic fervour?

seriously j blount, is someone mumbling 'oh my gosh, orange squash' over some hyper pitched vocals and piano lines hiphop?

shurely john's definition is a wee bit all-encompassing?

anyhow, go ahead, the brits invented everything, america's had no impact on world pop culture, when analysing dizzee rascal it's important to ignore his music, his interviews, his wardrobe, his videos, him him him

" 'oh my gosh, orange squash' over some hyper pitched vocals and piano lines hiphop?" - is the new outkast hip-hop?

"part of an essentially american tradition" = wrong. he's part of a british movement the draws on hip hop, dancehall reggae (to a far greater degree) and a variety of club-based dance music. this pervasive idea that all british music is beholden to older US versions just winds me up. it also horrifies me that dizzee will be pushed in the states as hip-hop when there is so much more to his work, plus evaluating him in terms of hip hop only gives people who don't and can't understand his music a stick to beat him with (it doesn't sound like Luidacris = it's shit).
a small afterthought: roots manuva, rodney p, estelle, wildflower et al = hip hop
dizzee = not

"part of an essentially american tradition" = wrong. he's part of a british movement the draws on hip hop, dancehall reggae (to a far greater degree) and a variety of club-based dance music. this pervasive idea that all british music is beholden to older US versions just winds me up. it also horrifies me that dizzee will be pushed in the states as hip-hop when there is so much more to his work, plus evaluating him in terms of hip hop only gives people who don't and can't understand his music a stick to beat him with (it doesn't sound like Ludacris = it's shit).
a small afterthought: roots manuva, rodney p, estelle, wildflower et al = hip hop
dizzee = not

james i am totally in agreement about hiphop's influence but it's a really facile point and anyway to backpedal and say that you've been gently merely reminding blinkered englishmen rabidly in denial 'pretending it isn't', without any personal dismissive reductive pleasure is taking the piss

how is there so much more to boy in da corner than there was to stankonia?

u tell him chip bludd

it doesn't sound like Ludacris = it's shit???

but of course i wouldn't know, i've only been part of this whole thing for over a decade...

i mean you admit "it's not just hiphop" so why not talk about that instead rather than impotently sniping away

furthermore if the english here have been exaggerating ukg's newness it'll be in reaction to you more than anything i hope... if stelfox really believes hiphop has absolutely nothing to do with it then i wash my hands of him

Chip - I've yet to post a reductive thing bout Dizzee (nothing but bigups here) but I do hafta laff at a Britishpress that's all "he's our Tupac" one minute but cries foul if you say "he's your hip-hop". it's just more "we haddem first/you won't understand/you can't understand" indieisms.

haha xpost with "listen junior"!!!

blount's English rap = Betty Boo hurt me in my head/heart. Dizzee Rascal strikes me as having a clear connection to the likes of Gunshot, London Posse and the Ragga Twins - the whole point is its no longer JUST hip hop, JUST ragga, JUST garage. usually i am cool with arguing about genre definitions but its getting ridiculous with this shit - hey i've got a new one that just rolls off the tongue - raprage

same songs, same rhymes - new beats tho

that said, my original post had more to do with whether analysing/judging an answer record by its feminist intent/content might - might - be missing the point.

Is that the dude from Digital Underground as one of the male voices on the Sheisty track? I sure wish it were.

I don't see why Dizzee has to be hip hop, unless he starts saying that he's explicitly working within hip hop. Of course, he's fucked everyone off by saying he's not garage, while he comes out of a UKG tradition, so maybe it all is up for grabs. But for hip hop to automatically have some claim on what he's doing, with no attempt to account for the regional specificity of it, seems a bit like rock journalists starting to subsume hip hop as a part of the rock canon (which is indeed happening).

While hip hop is no longer wedded to the the rather mono-stylistic boom-bip template that it was for much of the 90s, it seems to me that the rhythmic specificity of Dizzee et al would keep it within the UKG genre, at least until it mutates further. When jungle MCs rap over beats, does that make it hip hop?

is it ok to call "return of the mack" r&b?

why do i like Shisty's 'I Luv U'? - because of the DIY ethic, because of the 'response' record concept, because she seems cool, because the guys voices are funny and the lyrics sound - its a fun messy slanger of a tune. Dizzee still wins tho.

i'm not saying there's more to dizzee than there is to hip hop as a genre. i'm saying there is more to be taken into account of when evaluating his music that than a such a blinkered viewpoint ("without the good old us of a those poor backward brits would never have anything of worth") allows. hell, we got no culture here that exists outside of that which you see fit to magnanimously give us have we? i give up - james you obviously know far more about this than me

and it kinda does a disservice to a musical culture that has been rapidly progressing for 12 or so years now

dave are you even reading my posts?

and i've never said it's got nothing to do with hip hop... look at the posts above (you can still was your hands of me if you like chip - i'll sleep at night) but that doesn't mean it is hip hop.

hip hop was invented by Europeans anyway (Moroder, Kraftwerk, The Clash...haha)

the thing is nobody should ever be offended to be labelled as either hip hop or garage. calling Dizzee or Mike Skinner either one never does seem quite right though just because while it may be the dominant styling it negates other elements of their music - nods to other genres, attitudes, ideas, even if they did all come out the same thing.

"it's something new, but let's not refuse to connect dots for the sake of her majesty the queen."

the thing i kept thinking the most when listening to 'Boy In Da Corner' was how PUNK it seemed - the mess, the filth, the violence, the shrieking and bizarre accents and noises he makes as he spits...

I do hope boy in da corner is the record that actually introduces the term garage (uk def) to US rockcrit press, since the overwhelming majority found a way to skirt it completely when writing up craig david or mike skinner.

just for the record, i love hip hop and americans... and yes james io am reading yr posts... dizzee = part of hip hop but to evaluate him solely in hip hop terms sells a whole cultural movement (UKG) short.

Does calling it hip-hop mean hip-hop has some claim on it? I don't see why. It's just pointing out the obvious--the thing is that, as "Chip" says, it may be a facile point, but it wasn't one that anyone was making until recently. Reynolds, for one, managed to write thousands of words about the roots of garage rap without mentioning hip-hop once.

It sort of reminds me of an argument I had on ILM once over hip-hop's roots in Jamaica, which would up being an either-or thing. I don't see why you can't talk about the origins of hip-hop in the context of both Jamaica and New York, or garage rap in the context of both America and Britain. Or why calling it hip-hop, or connecting it to it, can't mean giving it a window onto a much wider tradition, rather than closing it down.

Aside from all that, the reason why I would make the hip-hop connection here, far more than in jungle or 2-step, is that the beats aren't so different. I don't really see garage rap as a big change or innovation in rhythm. A lot of it doesn't sound very far removed from say Roots Manuva to me (the dub metal bass)--it's just a lot better than him.

(PS I am British and have been listening to British dance music for over a decade. So limit yourself to "jaded" stock responses only please!)

(PPS What really makes me jaded is not garage rap; it's the familiar way it's being written about.)

Um, why can't some tracks Dizzee makes be hip-hop and some not?

Shisty's still good.

SHYSTIE
http://www.rwdmag.com/gallery/images/120x120/shys1197rwd.jpg

did anyone buy the 12 of i luv u?

"A whole album is in the pipeline. The b-side to ‘I Love You’ was produced by the Streets and I’m working with him again, as well as going on tour supporting him, I’m really looking forward to that."

hey, wow!

(also: maybe this has been mentioned before, but i was reading an interview w dizzee somewhere and he said he almost titled the album "dizzee new heights" - maybe just an obvious pun but maybe an explicit streets reference?)