privilege as a meme

Wow, DL, I am so not prepared to have a conversation with you about the terrible anguish of cis-het white dudes being told their behaviour is sometimes hurtful and oppressive to others. It's a shame, because this was such a good thread all afternoon.

(I'm waah btw)

That really is right back in a circle to "the terrible pain of being called a racist is so so sooo much worse than actually experiencing racism" logic which is not helpful and not productive, and to be honest, the kind of thing that I expected you to be smarter than.

Who said anything about "cis-het white dudes"? What happened to the complexity of privilege? And even if I were talking about CHWDs, you do realise some of them have mental health issues and might need some self-care too, right? It's convenient to assume that whoever you're calling out is a thick-skinned blowhard but that isn't always the case.

Well, you making comments about calling someone out means "assuming" people are "thick-skinned blowhards" is really projecting a lot, too, DL.

Calling someone out means saying that what they are doing is hurtful or unproductive. What motives or tone or "they think everyone is a blowhard" assumptions you want to assign to that call-out says more about you than it does the person doing the call-out.

that absolutely everyone in the world experiences pain and suffering as a baseline is the only reason we can communicate with each other at all, so i dont think its out of bounds to consider that it might hurt someone to call out their racism, it might be a necessary or deserved or even constructive pain, but it is pain, the thing we all try so hard to avoid, in recognizing that fact you are being a more humane person than the racist whos whole racism is designed to deny that basic empathy, its totally understandable to not be able to muster that all the time, but sometimes maybe if one can imo its more potent than just plain rage and desire for victory, its actually an example of what it might look like to treat each other better

Why is it that the path to everyone treating each better always has to be laid by the people who are most often treated the worst?

I mean, it's a great-sounding argument that wholly relies on an unreal, possibly unattainable utopian starting point in order for it not to come across like you're saying that marginalized people bear the main responsibility for modifying the behaviors of the people marginalizing them.

People read "you are full of just plain rage and the desire for victory" all the time onto situations where the actual motive is "I just want this, one, tiny corner, to live my fucking life without this shit, again."

And once people have decided to monster you, they are going to read your actions as monstrous and your motivations as bad, no matter how polite, or how careful, or how humanely you try to frame your criticism. It's a mug's game.

x-post over DJP's great points.

Xp you assume that every callout is valid, every accusation is correct. Which is convenient but that's not always the case. Sorry BB I agree with many of your points but not that.

like you're saying that marginalized people bear the main responsibility for modifying the behaviors of the people marginalizing them.

― SHAUN (DJP), Friday, January 10, 2014 12:02 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that is often unfortunately the case, building your power on other peoples suffering is a powerful drug that leaves you unfeeling and sometimes you just need basic human dignity demonstrated to you, obvs thats not all that needs to happen, all sorts of more aggressive and self righteous actions have proved useful too

and also not everyone who disagrees with oppressing people is a member of the oppressed class

imo its not really an either or type situation, but just that keeping yr heart a little bit open helps to make you a smarter and altogether more tuned in person, then if totally necessary you can still kill a cop or w/e

Going down a bit of a cul-de-sac here. Enraging someone with nastiness/ignorance in order to dismiss them as hysterical is obviously a nasty and bullying behaviour, and an outpouring of anger/frustration is imo a legitimate response (within reason), but ultimately it isn't going to change anyone's future behaviour. Ignorant people maybe the problem but by definition they aren't going to provide the solution. Not saying that the oppressed are responsible for making things better - all decent people are.

Xp

Xp you assume that every callout is valid, every accusation is correct.

No. I am assuming I am talking about cases where the callout is valid/the accusation is correct.

You're absolutely right, DL. Not every callout is valid, and not even accusation is correct. And also, it's true, a really really really tiny percentage of women do actually make up false accusations about being raped, too! These things actually happening on the rare occasion does not make them something which should completely override the entire conversation.

And the tiny percentage of callouts that are completely invalid, compared to the huge number of massively problematic behaviour that goes unchallenged and uncalledout, I'm sorry, but my sympathy is with "being falsely accused of being racist, on the incredibly rare occasion that it happens, is something you will eventually learn to get over" when compared with a wider goal of "slowly, shifting society to be more just and more balanced."

I have, in my entire life, been falsely accused of racism, exactly twice, and I can remember each incident with stunning clarity - mostly because of its rareness. (I mean, really. Someone once called me racist because I didn't know if we had any R Kelly cassettes. Come on.) I have also been accused of racism many times, gone "wah, that's not fair" then the next day, or week, or year, realised, actually, that thing I was doing/saying, that was actually really quite racist. I did not die of being called out. It is a completely survivable thing, to be accused of racism! You might even learn something from it. (Especially if it's Dan doing it, ouch.)

For many, many people, choosing how and who to have arguments with is a form for self care.

this is a really valuable insight, thanks for this.

(I mean, really. Someone once called me racist because I didn't know if we had any R Kelly cassettes. Come on.)

look how many times can I say I'm sorry

not racist, homophobic (trapped in the closet)

With the notion of 'oh but isn't it shitty to be yelled at and called names by angry oppressed people' in mind--I had a chance to talk to the author of this awesome book recently and I said to her something like "there needs to be room in our movements (or societies or what have you) for people to learn about their internalized oppressiveness, and learning means making mistakes, and we should build space for them & not chase after people with pitchforks for making them."

With a little distance I can see how that point I was making isn't so far removed from "why are you making my life so hard, angry people, you're so mean to me for accidentally saying fucked up things."

Harsha super astutely came back at me with "Yes, we need to have room for people to make mistakes and learn, but we always have to keep in mind the people on whose backs those mistakes are made--we can't let forgiving one another's mistakes blind us to the pain caused by the mistake in the first place."

perfect, thank you for that

"Yes, we need to have room for people to make mistakes and learn, but we always have to keep in mind the people on whose backs those mistakes are made--we can't let forgiving one another's mistakes blind us to the pain caused by the mistake in the first place."

Ahhh truth.

btw if yall curious you can hear our whole conversation about the book here. she is a real honest to god badass.

well just see abt that *sharpens katana, adjusts fedora*

I don't think there's a one size fits all solution but yeah that's about right and I've probably dwelt too long itt on unrepresentative incidents. Enjoyed talking it through though.

that space for learning and making mistakes exists, the problem is people are awful about admitting when they make mistakes and accepting the reaction that mistake inspires. it takes a lot of strength to just apologize and not critique the critique for lack of courtesy, sympathy, etc. ani difranco's reaction to the whole plantation thing is a pretty classic example.

that space for learning and making mistakes exists

― da croupier, Friday, January 10, 2014 6:18 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what do you mean by this? my first thought was 'well The Whole Fuckin World is a place where privileged people get to make mistakes and not get called on it, these alternative/movement spaces I'm thinking of are really the outliers,' but I'm not sure that's what you mean.

along those same lines there seems to be a feeling amongst some that people will never learn via being confronted and they just instinctively double down on their views, but imo thats often just a temporary phenomenon, like people get weird and defensive and embarrassed but later then they adopt the opposing view as their own, i mean the vast majority of the time people just hold onto their own views but sometimes they come around even when it looks at first like they wont, like i wouldnt be surprised if ani defranco already has a diff pov on that whole fiasco than when she wrote her non appology

right i think people prefer to eat their crow privately

i just feel that, even in movement spaces, the problem is not that it isn't possible to learn and grow, but that people who "haven't learned about their internalized oppressiveness" tend to demand that everyone take on faith their inherent Goodness, never make them feel shame or embarrassment, and treat anything problematic-to-toxic they do or say should be treated like a typo.

crow eating is a personal journey

I think it's a well-intentioned and potentially powerful phrase. But I think a lot of people who find it directed at themselves completely misread an intent on the part of the person saying it, because of guilt, or fear, or projection or whatever. The phrase is saying "power exists, notice which ways it flows" with the hopes that it will lead to at least an acknowledgement, and perhaps maybe an attack on unequal power flow in itself. But then hearers choose to hear it only as an attack on them, personally, rather than as being directed at a power structure. And that misreading makes me really, really sad, because "privilege" is a way of saying "this is NOT ABOUT YOU, this is about a power structure way way bigger than either of us" but there's still this... arrogance? guilt? something? which makes a person hearing it think it's all about them.

well in fairness this is precisely the danger of people outside the academy (substitute another word here if you like) using academic jargon casually like this: neither they nor the person they're speaking to is really aware of the nuances of the term; there's bound to be frustration/miscommunication. which is why as you implied, saying "check your privilege" needs to seek to begin conversations rather than end them

maybe if there was a locker or cubby provided

Why is it that the path to everyone treating each better always has to be laid by the people who are most often treated the worst?

― SHAUN (DJP), Friday, January 10, 2014 12:01 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

kinda reminds me of ""Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt." (Exodus 22:21) where those who were treated the worst are obligated to lay the path bc only they know how much it is needed

there's a difference between Moses telling his people to be nice to others and white person to say "you have to forgive my racism if you want me to stop being racist" to someone who isn't white.

that has nothing to do w/ what i said

there's a difference between Moses telling his people to be nice to others and white person to say "you have to forgive my racism if you want me to stop being racist" to someone who isn't white.

― da croupier, Friday, January 10, 2014 1:33 PM (14 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that wouldnt be a bad deal actually

Yeah, plus some of my fuck ups have been just turns of phrase or careless word choices that don't so much reveal my acceptance of systemic racism as much as show that I'm not used to having to pre-think everything in case some word choice may be construed as offensive. If I am careless and say something potentially offensive, I'm working on my complete acceptance of making an apology and fixing whatever harm was felt by the other person, even if I meant nothing like what they thought.

And trust on both sides helps avoid those moments--people who know me or know my politics already may not be listening for me to slip up at the same level. But it's still on me to repair harm if I cause it.

xxx a bunch of ps

lol I referred to a political no-hoper as a "dark horse" once and I'm pretty sure the person who checked me was kidding but point taken.

most people don't seem to really enjoy hurting other people. discovering that the circumstances of your birth, your family, community, society, the fabric of your reality, is actually causing real harm to other human beings, that's a pretty heavy thing to lay on someone. the existence of internalized oppressiveness in someone is generally not much the fault of the person who has it, if we want to be realistic about it. nobody wakes up and says "time to oppress some minorities today!" except sadistic or power-tripping fucks.

truth is, you do have to forgive a racist or sexist most of the time. people aren't as responsible as we'd like to think for how they think, act, and believe, and trying to put more responsibility on them than they have is why you keep. seeing. over. and over. and over. again people getting upset at being called "oppressors".

so you keep seeing the same reaction from people over and over again. don't you think there might be a reason for it? "yeah, racists are evil idiots who MUST BE EDUCATED!!!" no, they're just imperfect people being imperfect people. that's the sad, harsh reality of life. if you keep fighting that reality, you're going to get nowhere.

most people don't seem to really enjoy hurting other people

lol disagree

guess it comes down to what you mean by enjoy

i'd like to believe that at least :S

Everybody is imperfect. Everyone realizes this. That baseline imperfection that we all share doesn't mean that I have to be nice to you if you make one too many "harmless" jokes about my natural rhythm.

And yes, you are totally wrong about ppl not enjoying hurting other ppl.

people def want and try to hurt other people but for the majority of the population enjoy is going too far

you can't change if you don't know you've done wrong. that's why learning is at the top of the list.

Let's not argue about privilege with burt

i stand with burt

i liked what he said

wait is spectrum burt stanton

uh oh