"Baby It's Cold Outside" -- Holiday Song? Rapey?

idk that I would call this song a "carol"

nb i don't actually know what carol means

i don't remember it in any old movies but i vaguely remember it as a trope in old sitcoms that nick + nite played in the 90s.

"Oh my, I guess the champagne bubbles must be going to my head"

"The answer is no."

it's not hard for me to read the woman's lines as ways to get the persistent man to back off without being impolite. the "what will my family/neighbors think" is an appeal for him to protect her honor and his own. i think it's possible to interpret this as "i like you and dont want to offend you, but i really do want to leave tonight." for that and other reasons i have a pretty unforgiving interpretation of this song.

so why does she sing "baby it's cold outside" in harmony with him at the end?

male songwriter wants his happy ending

also:
“I ought to say no, no, no sir, well, at least I’m gonna say that I tried.”

male songwriter wants his happy ending

― rhyme heals all goons (m bison), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 2:46 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh come on, if you're just going to trump everything with "well a man wrote it so that's the way the man wants it" then there's no point in close-reading the song at all

that's when she realizes how cold and cruel the world is xxxp

im not saying she's not conflicted, im just not swayed by the "she's playing it coy" line of defense. he's not listening to her at all, so its not even really a back and forth; its two concurrent monologues.

that's the narrative the songwriter is pushing tho! due to currents socials mores she will resist but she really wants to stay with you, dont take no for answer, etc. she will come around eventually if u tell her how horny she makes you.

quintessential ilx thread, kudos everyone

But he's not taking that next step into actually doing something coercive. Like what is actually wrong with him continuing to plead with her? I feel like you're giving the woman in the song way too little credit.

like the last part before she joins him for ~harmony~ is, guess i'll have a smoke, can i borrow your coat? I'm audi 5. during which he's like u could die also i will have blue balls quit holding out BABY ITS COLLLLLLLD OUUUUUUTSIIIIIIE

if someone believes all male-female sexual relationships inevitably are tainted by a quantity of coercion than there's no reason this song would be different + certainly a member of the ruling patriarchy would try to downplay anything that might make explicit said coercion. in that sense this song is much more problematic as it not only attempts to normalize male-female sexuality but normalize a particularly brazen manifestation of it - the coercive alcohol-aided seduction of the female object. in the end her own objections are utterly obliterated as she joins in harmony w/ the male's initial reading of the text - that she really should stay bc it's cold outside.

if it's supposed to be totally consensual the writer does a rly shitty job of establishing that is all im saying

in what context can any piece of culture ever successfully resist the complete + total annihilating vision of the patriarchy? i guess we can locate some pockets of resistance but probably not playing over the soundsystem of department stores over the shopping holiday season. perfect opportunity to drill the values + mores of rape culture into consumer sheep brains.

A+

otoh the female is not even given voice to question that "the night time is the right time to rock the night away" -- her consent is beyond assumed

the fuck yall talking about

Y'all are overlooking the fact that there is nothing in the song that specifies the sex of the protagonists by the way. If it's "rapey" then it's the performances that make it so, not the song.

'rudolph the red-nosed reindeer': excuses bullying, promotes unfair hiring practices

we're finally thru the looking glass: xmas songs are mostly bullshit

Y'all are overlooking the fact that there is nothing in the song that specifies the sex of the protagonists by the way. If it's "rapey" then it's the performances that make it so, not the song.

― everything, Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:00 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was actually going to post a blog comment that noted that in the original film in which the song appeared, it is sung twice, once with male pleading with female, and once with female pleading with male

I had to sing this (amongst others, me and one other guy doing the male part and then about eight women doing the female part) at our work fundraising carols (roaming floor to floor, annoying people and collecting money), and apart from being dubious it was very hard to sing if you only have a passing knowledge of it. And an odd song to sing at work although it kinda makes sense as something bosses say to their staff in law firms?

There, that is my contribution to this thread.

really dislike this song for musical reasons. Plus tom jones.

next year let's do "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus"

slut-shaming, imo.

I was actually going to post a blog comment that noted that in the original film in which the song appeared, it is sung twice, once with male pleading with female, and once with female pleading with male

And, since she was brought up in this thread, Zooey Deschanel and M. Ward do the "female pleading" version on the She & Him Christmas record.

Oh noes, I am a Cis-Het dude being made to think about rape for the whole sixth time in my life, DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP. Why don't they ever shut up.
― The Manics: Very Welsh, Much Working Class, So cialist (Branwell Bell), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 5:47 PM (1 hour ago)

I know I am going to be annoyed by getting trolled by this bullshit tomorrow, but late + whiskey says that I can't let go of how furious this comment makes me. Your assumption that Cis-Het status makes people somehow immune to rape, esp in relation to the use of drugs/alcohol, just so you can make a dumb point about a song and clown me? Well, you don't know me, and maybe you should hold yourself to the same standard you just tried to hang on me. Not only does it happen, but it happened to me twice. Thanks for making me think about this shit on Christmas Eve you prick.

Side note: no, I don't want to fucking talk about it, no offense to the rest of you, but at least wrt to me and specifics, I'm not talking about this again on ilx.

On a more thread related note, I heard that she and him version today and wow it's awful

gaaaah this thread, holy shit O_o

aaaaanyhoo *steps around flaming turds*

i like the ella/louis version that Mordy mentioned upthread

also don't kill me but the Bette Midler / James Caan version in For the Boys goes a long way with me too

dino's version is rapey-er to me bcz of his whole boozehound persona ... same with buble who just creeps me out generally

kinda depends on delivery for me, i guess?

how do we feel abt sigourney + buster poindexter

http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/xbu0ht_baby-it-s-cold-outside-sigourney-w_fun

*goes back to Dr Who christmas reruns*

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

why was this all twitter talked about this year?

I think you're confusing this song with Blurred Lines.

Mention of tom jones itt: fp

The usual suspects: fp

Ray Charles version best I've heard, live version given me on tape for rehearsal purposes, dunno who other part was, impression given is that ray & partner know whats goin on and counted on it from the start- from her delivery, ray might be in trouble tbh.

The usual suspects: fp'd again, just in case.

Next: coerced ordination of snowman in walkin in a winter wonderland: agency, religion and slush-shaming

lol dmac

google sez ray charles/betty carter give yr ears a present

tom jones ffs

the usuals ffs

first time I ever heard this was on SNL in the 80's with Sigourney Weaver and Buster Poindexter and I found it creepy. But I like it now.

I love that this was just a throwaway number for performing to houseguests for about five years, before Loesser thought to record it properly

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, December 24, 2013 4:33 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this has colored the way I hear the song ever since I learned the background. Loesser wrote it for him and his wife to sing at parties where everyone was expected to show up with a number prepared. Which I think is sweet, and also mostly makes me wish I could've gone to those parties. (Less sweet I guess is that his wife was mad when he actually published and sold the song, because she thought of it as just their private thing.)

Just learned this, which highlights the coercion that some see in the lyrics. Not just coercion, but a predator/prey, winner/loser scenario.

The lyrics in this duet are designed to be heard as a conversation between two people, marked as "mouse" and "wolf" on the printed score; they have returned to the "wolf's" home after a date, and the "mouse" decides it is time to go home, but the "wolf" flirtatiously invites her to stay as it is late and "it's cold outside."[3] Every line in the song features a statement from the "mouse" followed by a response from the "wolf". Usually the "wolf" part is sung by a male and the "mouse" by a female.

Which led me to find this, which is OTM.

If no means no -- and I think we're all familiar with that concept -- then by refusing to accept her no, the wolf in question is displaying a fundamental disrespect toward the mouse. Sure, maybe it's a disrespect grounded in historical social rules. But it's still disrespect.

This is, I think, illustrative of why "yes means yes" -- the concept of enthusiastic consent -- is actually just as important as no meaning no. There's no confusion with an enthusiastic (rather than a grudging or coerced) yes. An enthusiastic yes means all parties are on board for the party in someone's Christmas pants.

Enthusiastic consent wasn't a thing in the time the song was written, which means that you can see the "mouse" (male or female) as interested but feeling restricted to being coy. But that reading just says to me that the social norms of the 1940s had pitfalls that blurred the line between yes and no.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Ok well, see y'all next year! *waves bye*

baby, it's cold outside so bundle up

This isn't over. This isn't over by a long shot!

http://mediamikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/nancyallen4.jpg

see what you did with your innocent poll

Its over. Holiday song. Non rapey. stfu for 11 months the usuals. You'll have a shot again next year.