The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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If you think of it as a hobby maybe you'll be less inclined to throw insults around. Yes?

yes and no. but thanks for your explanation, anyway.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link

why will nobody understand my aesthetic appreciation of sarin and semtex. bastards just break in to my house and parade me in my boxers.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:49 (seventeen years ago) link

My cousin thought up an interesting solution to the health care crisis. He suggested that we create a two-year program for licensed doctors who can perform most of the routine tasks that don't require the advanced skill of a surgeon, for example. He went further to suggest that we should be allowed to sign a contract to forfeit our right to sue for malpractice.

In theory, this could lower health care services. But the law does not allow for this and our liberty is curtailed.

Why can't I enter into a contract with anyone I choose to provide health care services? Why can't hang a shingle that says, "Feel Lucky? Fluffy Bear Open-Heart Surgery Clinic. Only $200." I'll be honest about my education and experience and anyone of sound mind who signs a contract with me will get a really great deal on heart surgery. Why can't I enter into this kind of a business arrangement with anyone I want to? Why will I go to jail, even if I have an impeccable record of successful surgeries and live, satisfied customers?

The fact is that, with regards to practicing surgery, my liberty is being curtailed by the state. Is this OK? Why?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:52 (seventeen years ago) link

RJG and deej - I'm just attempting to get through to you, since you seem so hell bent on arguing about it. I'm trying to approach this from an angle even a six year old might understand. How about...it's a hobby that is protected by the Constitution and shall not be infringed upon by PC commandos no matter what. Howzzat?

Conversely, all I know about most of YOU here this morning is that you're afraid of guns.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't help feeling that a lot of what has the antis on this board all stirred up is that they have to confront the fact that not every gun owner conforms to their stereotype of what gun owner is.

Manalishi, I pretty much admitted this was true w/r/t river wolf, who I like and have hung out with a bunch. But you do conform to my stereotype of what a gun owner is.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

it's a stupid hobby

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

eat me

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:54 (seventeen years ago) link

jaymc - maybe that's your problem and not mine.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

If it helps, I am also afraid of wild animals with big teeth and strong jaw muscles, spiked objects thrust towards my face, nuclear armageddon, and... a large proportion of the population being allowed to carry guns

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

every gun owner I've met in my life has been well-spoken and literate, so my personal stereotype is pretty far removed from Manalishi.

Manalishi is the stereotype that makes people afraid of guns and gun owners, because he's the kind of person who seems stoked about the prospect of killing somebody darker than him and getting away with it.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Manalishi, you should collected Precious Moments figurines, they've never killed anyone.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:57 (seventeen years ago) link

a new game. what can "it's a hobby" not be used to defend.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (seventeen years ago) link

To you it would probably fill the same kind of need, it quells the same desires, like record collecting, which is also a habit of mine. Now, at least, I think you are beginning to understand. Flower presisng wasn't really something I ever endeavored to do, but I appreciate the comparison nonetheless. If you think of it as a hobby maybe you'll be less inclined to throw insults around. Yes?

http://www.limitedweb.com/figurines/precious_moments.gif

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (seventeen years ago) link

the kind of person who seems stoked about the prospect of killing somebody darker than him and getting away with it.

Doesn't everyone dream of this? What, NO? Just...me, then, I guess. My fantasties usually involve a bare-handed chop to the windpipe, though, not so much firearms.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I really didn't come here with the intent of sticking up for Manalishi and I'm not much of a libertarian, but seriously what the fuck?

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

WHOA, that's one hefty claim, Tombot! Have you even READ this whole thread? Not that I'd blame you for skimming given the girth of this spectacle, but Jesus. That's a heavy trip to lay on someone you don't even know, Tombot. I seem 'stoked' to 'kill' somebody to you??

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

you can't kill people that way it has to be with a loaded .357

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.tcffayetteville.com/Precious.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

uh yeah Manalishi you do and you should seriously consider the tone of your rhetoric if you'd rather people not think that

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I have never ever seen a gun in ~~australia~~the u.s. that wasn't holstered to the hip of a policeman ~~or licenced to a farmer to shoot kangaroos~~. i can't imagine anyone i know ever entertaining even the slightest notion of acquiring a fire arm due to some mentalist 'i must protect myself from the marauding hordes of burglars' hysteria. that stuff strikes me as utterly bizarre.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost You better call campus security, then, I guess. I mean, I AM a life member of the NRA and all. I guess that's tantamount to dragging someone from my truck to you, huh? Jesus.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:01 (seventeen years ago) link

the NRA is a bunch of small dicked morons

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Some people need a handgun to feel like a "big man", can we just leave it at that?

haha xpost

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:02 (seventeen years ago) link

I know and have known a number of gun collectors and gun owners who basically stockpiled weapons in their home and with the possible exception of Ally's dad making jocular comments vis-a-vis specific neighborhood dickheads I've never heard any of them brag about the effectiveness of their collection vs. burglars etc. as much as you have on this thread

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:03 (seventeen years ago) link

carrying a gun seems so anti-democratic to me. one of the main points of democracy being that no-one person should have the final say so in anything. a gun is a sort of trump anti-democratic 'and i say X' device.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

jaymc - maybe that's your problem and not mine.

I wouldn't disagree with you here.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't backpedal, pal. Christ, this started out relatively amusing, occasionally enlightening, and largely (though expectedly) disappointing, but now I'm, like, bummed out.

If your hope was to banish me from this thread, you've done that. You should be careful about the kind of accusations you throw around.

How is it that I'M the pariah here? Moderators??

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

cos you are the one that sounds gonzo to the rest. that's how it works

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

BANISH HIM

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

w/o getting in here too much (i've spent far too much time on here already the last few days): call all destroyer does make some good points. many people i have met personally are averse to firearms simply because they've never actually seen or handled one, and assume that they're all erratically dangerous. and, once they've actually fired a few, they're more comfortable with them. not necessarily in the social, everyone's-got-to-have-one sense, but at least they're not going to freak out if they discover that there's one in the house or room or something.

there is a strange tendency at both extremes of the "debate" to anthropomorphize guns--at one end, some imbue guns with malicious intent, calling them "evil" and "ready to kill" (I have actually heard people say this). At the other, they fetishize their ability to grant the holder a feeling of power (not really anthropomorphizing, but whatever). Really, they're just machines. Simple, bloody-minded machines that throw a piece of metal out one end. Recognizing this (and not just in the abstract sense) does not mean you have like them, or want them around, but it does help bring the discussion into more rational terms, maybe? like, if everyone is comfortable with guns being just things (and not evil killing machines or anti-robbery talismans or something), then the discussion around what to actually DO with them becomes a little less hysterical.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

River Wolf 8080.

(hah, first 8080 I feel lame)

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:09 (seventeen years ago) link

You should be careful about the kind of accusations you throw around.
OR ELSE?

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

;_; Tom, I don't stomp on your dreams.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

having guns in your home to use against intruders seems a lot more rational to me (though i wouldn't do it) than the idea that concealed weapons are a useful form of defense. i've had a gun pointed at me twice, and in neither instance would it have mattered if i had my own - it's not like i could have said, "hang on for a minute" and had the guys wait while i produced my gun. also, even if there were some scenario in which that were possible, exchanging fire doesn't seem like the best idea.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

^^^^

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

And, while Manalishi has been a bit, uh, "strident," I am a little weirded out by how quickly everyone else has been to assume that he's a mouth-breather with a jones to shoot some fucking burglars. Yeah, the "cold dead hands" stuff is a little whacked, but seriously? You guys are very quick to assume that he's got a boner for some killing.

(...well, except for the CCW stuff)

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link

my M-16 jammed with a live round in the chamber during my qualifying shoot, that shit was nerve-wracking as hell because I knew I had to clear it and get back to firing downrange in a fucking hurry or I'd not make the cut and have to be sent back for an extra week

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Re: "if a much more strict process for acquiring a gun was introduced (similar to what was detailed above), and that process would surely save lives in the long run (the crimes of passion/murders we've been talking about), would you still oppose those changes on principle?"

Don't we kind of have to talk in abstractions about this kind of thing? I can give you stats (you know, the "Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide" kind of thing) *Source / New England Journal of Medicine) - but I imagine you have NRA-friendly rebuttal stats of your own.

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

and I feel no compunction to be polite or apologize for talking shit about Manalishi who's made it fairly clear he's more interested in ad hominems and showing us what a hard-nosed realist he is than actually having any kind of intelligent discussion

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

My guess is that in concealed carry permit states, for every prevented crime you have at least three dozen "Oh yeah, fuckface, well how about THIS! You're not talking so big now, are you?!" And I'd be curious how many shootings the latter leads to.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean if the "hey everybody's let's be cool, we're just talking about keeping a few handguns around the house" crowd gets to say that the anti-gunners are really just living in a fear bred through ignorance (which may be true in some circles, but a quick look around here says otherwise), it's at least fair to wonder if the self-defense contingent of the pro-handgun crew are living in optimism bred through ignorance of their (non-)ability to actually use their handguns the way they think they will, when confronted with a crazy person or hardened criminal who is pointing a gun at them. Like lauren, I too have had guns pointed at me, and having a gun of my own would have improved the situation exactly 0, and in fact would have drastically increased the chances of violence and bloodshed.* The "peace of mind" argument strongly feels like delusional wishful thinking on the part of people who have never actually been in the sights of someone who threatened to shoot them.

* Without going into detail too much, at the police station after one of these events, the guy who owned the supermarket I was briefly in with said gun-wielding maniac, said "man, you should have told me! I always got a gun right here!" and slapped his ankle. "I woulda taken him out BOOM BOOM" and I was like "yeah, that's sort of why I didn't say anything to you."

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:23 (seventeen years ago) link

So when you ultimately hear that this kid in VA got his gun legally (after your celebratory 'I told you so' following the word that the serial number was filed off... um, XX), does any part of you pause at all to think that maybe some kind of tougher sanctions/process could have kept this from happening?

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Manalishi, how do you feel about it being mandated that guns are kept in a locked steel cupboard, of a certain standard, affixed to the fabric of the building and that ammo is kept in a separate case of a similar standard?

Because that would seem like a sensible precaution against children or, say, an intruder getting hold of your guns?

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:30 (seventeen years ago) link

when do you take the guns and ammo out of the locked steel cupboards? just before you sit down in the armchair for your shift as lookout or when you hear the first unusual sound in the dark?

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link

When you want to do something less daft than home defence with a gun like going hunting.

― Ed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

doubt that'll appeal much to roger adultery's aesthetics

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, given that Manalishi's point rests more on being able to defend your home than being able to go hunting, having to keep your guns and ammo separate isn't likely to appeal.

(and, given Manalishi, surely anything to do with guns being mandated isn't likely to appeal)

― c sharp major, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

the guy who owned the supermarket I was briefly in with said gun-wielding maniac, said "man, you should have told me! I always got a gun right here!" and slapped his ankle. "I woulda taken him out BOOM BOOM" and I was like "yeah, that's sort of why I didn't say anything to you."

nothing saves lives like a shootout in a store full of people.

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Another point of clarification - taking a driver's test is not necessary for the ownership of a car, it's needed in order to operate a motor vehicle. The requirements mentioned above (training, renewal, etc.) are already in place for the perceived equivalent for gun owners (conceal/carry), and are in fact quite stringent. If you are trying to argue for ownership licensure with the same stringent requirements, Driver's licenses really aren't a functional analogue.

Again, I'm mostly trying to stay out of this because the level of hysterics on both sides make me uncomfortable, but I thought I'd throw that in.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

wait... jaymc's uncle built his own CANNON?

― lauren, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

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