Superhero Filmmakers: Where's Our Watchmen?

The Black Freighter thing essentially just emphasizes the elements which are already there in the main story, it doesn't really add anything new that isn't already inherent to the major plot. I think the biggest thing it does related to the main story is that it questions the supposedly open "I leave it entirely to your hands" ending, because according to the Black Freighter subplot Veidt is already damned. Though maybe it just means Veidt is damned in his soul, not necessarily that his plan will be revealed to the public. Anyway, it I think it functions as a sort of a hidden morality to the story, because it makes the ending morally less ambiguous by clearly stating that Veidt was wrong. So, theoretically, if the movie cuts off the whole Black Freighter story, this could actually make it more open-ended and ambivalent than the comic.

it makes the ending morally less ambiguous by clearly stating that Veidt was wrong.

I think this is super-crucial, especially because it isn't Rorschach (who paradoxically praises Truman as one of his heroes in the opening pages) saying it.

its part and parcel with the "battle not with monsters" Nietzsche quote - Veidt does and is damned for it. Like the guy in the Black Freighter, he has willingly become a butcher, and in the company of butchers he will stay (wonder if Snyder will keep Veidt's line about how he dreams of swimming towards the freighter).

Yeah, that's why I called it a hidden morality. Basically, the "I leave it entirely to you hands" ending of the main comic is Moore saying to reader, "You can judge for yourself whether Veidt was wrong or not", but the ending of the Black Freighter is him saying, "I think he was".

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cut out the Black Freighter and the impression left is that Rorschach is the lone voice of morality, which is ridiculous

x-post

a nation weeps

It's not just that Veidt becomes a butcher, the main thing is that he does the wrong thing (killing innocent people/the Black Freighter guy killing his family) while thinking he is doing the right thing (saving people/saving his family). The moral judgement in Black Freighter is quite clear.

(x-post)

cut out the Black Freighter and the impression left is that Rorschach is the lone voice of morality, which is ridiculous

Well yeah, but this would mean the voice of morality actually has to be the audience.

Whoops, sorry, he doesn't actually kill his family, does he? But he still kills a couple of innocent folks.

Notice that the Black Freighter guy's name is never given. I wonder if ti bgeins with an A?

He kills his wife.

SPOILER

No, I don't think he does. He beats her up, but is stopped by their kids stepping in. His wife is shown alive a few panels later.

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It's been so long and I don't have the comic with me so I'll defer here.

I believe Tuomas is correct, he tries to strangle her...? He does kill that couple on the beach though.

When I first read the comic I thought he killed her too. But she is shown alive, looking at him while he runs away from their house towards the Black Freighter.

I guess most readers just assume the worst while reading that bit for the first time, so they don't notice all the details. I certainly didn't.

4. INT. STATUE - THAT MOMENT
The screen of a portable TV shows THREE HELICOPTERS lifting off from
Laguardia. We're in the OBSERVATION ROOM inside the statue's head.
A TERRORIST holds a crowd of SQUEALING TOURISTS -- men, women,
schoolchildren -- at bay with an automatic rifle. Two others stand
by the windows, scanning the harbor for signs of a double-cross; and
a fourth, the RINGLEADER, speaks into a walkie-talkie.

RINGLEADER
Good. We got forty innocent people here. One false move . . . and
we blow her brains out.

SWAT CAPTAIN (O.S.)
(filter; from walkie-talkie)
Blow whose brains out?

5. EXT. STATUE - THAT MOMENT
TIGHT on the ring of OBSERVATION WINDOWS situated just below the
jutting spikes of the CROWN. CAMERA PULLS BACK rapidly to take in
the whole of the statue's head.

RINGLEADER (O.S.)
(a nasty laugh)
Lady Liberty, my friend. Lady Liberty's brains!

6. EXT. FERRY - THAT MOMENT - DAY
MOUNTING TENSION among the SWAT TEAM on deck.

SWAT COP
Sons of bitches.

SWAT CAPTAIN
Relax. We'll nail 'em on the transfer. Let's get those hostages out
first.

SWAT COP II
Captain . . . what the hell is that?

All eyes turn upward. In the distance, a TINY SPECK descends from
the clouds and drops, in a perfectly vertical line, toward the head
of the statue. The SWAT CAPTAIN hoists a pair of binoculars:

SWAT CAPTAIN
Shit. Shit fire!!

SWAT COP
Sir! What is it?

7. POV SHOT - THROUGH BINOCULARS
A magnified view of the SPECK, which turns out to be a futuristic,
blimplike HOVERCRAFT -- the OWLSHIP.

SWAT CAPTAIN (O.S.)
Christ almighty, it's the goddamned Watchmen!

Oooh boy.

The Evil Watcher What Watches at Midnight.

WatchTick

anyway, i didnt read dis thread but it looks like dumb, lame crap. otoh, i would pay full ticket prices - not matinee!!!! - to see an adaptation of the SAM HAMM watchmen script (excerpted above), instead of some fool-ass nigga, like, HONESTLY trying to adapt it. the og comic is dated ass irrelevent bullshit, and it overinflates its fukkin importance to treat it like some shakespearian ass bullsquid that everyone needs to experience.

OH NO THEY RAPED MY CHILDHOOD MY CHILDHOOD WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LET THESE THINGS REST *EYES GLISTEN*

that's a joke script, right?

that's a joke script, right?

Nope, it's the Sam Hamm-scripted version of Watchmen from around 1989 or so. You can read the whole thing here: http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/wtchmn.txt

all i care about is seein my nigga ~*bubastis*~ onscreen

[21:57] HELLA like DYING: christ almighty its the goddamn justice league of america
[21:57] eviliraqi: holy farkin sh*t its the watchmen. scram boys.
[21:58] eviliraqi: *teleports chuthulu in from another dimension*
[21:58] HELLA like DYING: lol
[21:59] eviliraqi: heh. so u see. i did it like ten minutes ago.
[21:59] HELLA like DYING: pardon me gents but you won't be needing these *removes guns from all henchmen at superspeed* where you're going
[21:59] HELLA like DYING: INT: Prison
[21:59] eviliraqi: lol
[21:59] HELLA like DYING: Henchman 1: Aww nuts those goddamned watchmen!
[21:59] eviliraqi: *kicks the ground with hands in pocket, a small cloud of dust settles*
[21:59] eviliraqi: those rat fink watchment
[22:00] HELLA like DYING: lol
[22:02] eviliraqi: so u see gents...heh....i did it fifteen minutes ago...
[22:02] eviliraqi: did what ozymandias?
[22:02] eviliraqi: ozymandias: heh...u know....
[22:02] eviliraqi: CAMERA cuts to nite owls face, he is making the :iamafag: face
[22:02] eviliraqi: CAMERA cuts to ozymandias' face, he is making the :iamafag: face
[22:03] eviliraqi: Fin.

Probably already linked but if not:

MTV: Walk us through your mind-set as you assembled the trailer.

Zack Snyder: Well, the first idea everyone had, from what I saw online, everyone was saying, "Oh, they're just going to do, like, a title treatment with some Rorschach voice and no pictures." And I was like, "No, we've got to give them some pictures," because to me the debate is about how close to the graphic novel will the movie be. We've just really been trying hard to get the movie as in spirit of the graphic novel as possible, so I wanted to show pictures right now so people can go, "Wow, I recognize that frame."

Etc. etc.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this with bemused detachment. One thing I'm leery of is Snyder's eagerness to treat the book as holy text and put EVERYTHING in might actually dilute the story and hurt the movie. For example, the Black Freighter story: it works brilliantly in the comic, but is it appropriate for the movie? Could some other element of the story be used to convey the same ambiguity and emotion?

See also: the stuff that was left out of the LOTR movies.

Snyder: Dr. Manhattan is an interesting person to hang the movie on in a lot of ways, because he's the conscience of the movie. His perspective on humanity and mankind is a lot of the conscience of the movie, for me anyway, and how he relates to the other characters is really important. He's also spectacular in his creation, so it seemed fun.

^^^ludicrousness

For example, the Black Freighter story: it works brilliantly in the comic, but is it appropriate for the movie?

Wait, I thought that was all being done as a separate animated film? Or did I miss something upthread?

Wait, I thought that was all being done as a separate animated film? Or did I miss something upthread?

It's a separate animated film... Just using it as a general example.

Honestly, I'm fine if they had just skipped the Black Freighter stuff and concentrated on making the rest of the movie good.

First time I read Watchmen, aged 14 or so, I took the Black Freighter to be a neat textural detail which echoed the beats of the main plot rather than the moral lynchpin, as has become the standard (and probably correct) reading. I still absolutely loved the book. so I don't think BF is essential to Watchmen, it just enriches it.

supposedly they're not using the squid

there are many, many conflicting reports about this though.

Snyder: Dr. Manhattan is an interesting person to hang the movie on in a lot of ways, because he's the conscience of the movie. His perspective on humanity and mankind is a lot of the conscience of the movie, for me anyway, and how he relates to the other characters is really important. He's also spectacular in his creation, so it seemed fun.

^^^ludicrousness

I thought the whole point of Dr Manhattan was that he was past conscience. Veidt rejects conscience for the good of humanity, and Rorschach is the conscience, though is ultimately ineffectual. At least that's how I remember the story, though it's been years since I read it.

If Snyder doesn't get the basic dynamics of this story, then it will be an exquisitely arranged shitpile.

5xpost

Dr. Manhattan's arc in the comic is that he gains his conscience back and starts caring about human beings again - though more like a parent cares about his children than as an equal to them. (Anyway, I always thought "conversion" on Mars felt a bit too easy and quick.) But calling him the conscience of the story still doesn't make much sense, because for most of the story he is the opposite to that.

This makes more sense if Snyder is a sociopath.

The trailer has a shot of Dr. Manhattan fighting in Vietnam, also known as totally blowing away a scared little dude in one of those big-ass hats.

More from Entertainment Weekly, including this great picture:

http://io9.com/assets/images/gallery/8/2008/07/medium_2679557193_0d50e4d085_o.jpg

Choice quotes:

''In my movie, Superman doesn't care about humanity, Batman can't get it up, and the bad guy wants world peace,'' Snyder says with a smirk. ''Will Watchmen be the end of superhero movies? Probably not. But it sure will kick them in the gut.''

''The average movie audience has seen so many superhero movies,'' he says. ''And some of this stuff is hard to take seriously. I mean, The Hulk? Come on.'' Snyder remembers screening some Watchmen footage for an unnamed studio executive. Afterward, Snyder says, the exec turned to him and said, ''This makes Superman look stupid.''

In 2005, Greengrass was deep into preproduction on a present-day, war-on-terror-themed adaptation by David Hayter (X-Men), when a regime change at Paramount Pictures led to its demise. Enter Warner Bros., which acquired the rights in late 2005. Snyder was working on 300 for the studio at the time, and he was alarmed when he heard about the deal. After some soul-searching, his fear of seeing a bad Watchmen movie trumped his fear of trying to make a great one. ''They were going to do it anyway,'' he says. ''And that made me nervous.'' Over many months, and many meetings, Snyder persuaded Warner Bros. to abandon the Greengrass/Hayter script and hew as faithfully as possible to the comic. The key battles: retaining the '80s milieu, keeping Richard Nixon (Moore did consider using an era-appropriate Ronald Reagan, but worried it would alienate American readers), and preserving the villain-doesn't-pay-for-his-crimes climax.

Oscar nominee Jackie Earle Haley (Little Children) campaigned for the role of Rorschach — the comic's most popular character, despite his sociopathic, sadistic vigilantism — by recruiting 14 friends to help produce a video of himself performing sequences from the comic book. ''It was a little labor of love, man,'' he says. ''Kind of cheesy, but for an audition piece, it sufficed.''

Based on footage Snyder screened for EW, at least, the work seems to have been worth it. Multiple scenes — the Comedian's murder, Rorschach's introduction, Dr. Manhattan's origin, and a hypnotic title sequence that shutter-flies through the history of Watchmen America, set to Bob Dylan's ''The Times They Are A-Changin''' — suggest a film that may capture more of Watchmen than anyone thought possible. Sure, there have been changes. The catastrophic climax is different. Provocative bits, like a timely subplot about alternative fuels, have been added. And a pirate/horror comic book that was threaded ironically throughout the Moore/Gibbons narrative is set to become a separate animated DVD. But Snyder's film clearly seeks to emulate the comic's arch-yet-dramatic tenor, its time-shifting, perspective-switching storytelling, and its richly realized alterna-New York. The Gunga Diner, the ''Who Watches the Watchmen?'' graffiti, the blood-splashed smiley-face button evoking a doomsday clock — it's all there.

Now comes the hard part: keeping it there. Snyder's current three-hour cut won't be unspooling in theaters next March. Robinov says two hours and 25 minutes is more realistic. ''Running time is dictated by how you are engaged,'' Robinov says. The studio might be gutsy enough to back Watchmen, but it wants to make a profit too. ''The challenge is to make a movie that can satisfy the fan but engage the typical moviegoer,'' he says. ''I think that's how Zack feels too.''

(Anyway, I always thought "conversion" on Mars felt a bit too easy and quick.)

totally agree - it happens in the space of a few panels and his explanation is basically "gosh I had never thought of the statistical improbability of people before"

Kinda parallels the conversion of the psychiatrist - "gosh I had never thought that basically people=shit before"

everything has already happened so it doesn't matter how quickly manhattan changes his mind, or something

BUBASTIS, FORGIVE ME

wonder if they are they keeping the genetically engineered cat thing?

None of the shit on Forks' list was owned by Eclipse. Hamsters are back already, so talk about that instead of wishing they'd come back. Cynicalman has been reprinted since, so talk about that instead of wishing for it to be reprinted. Mr Monster has been heavily reprinted and had shitloads of new issues since, talk about that instead of wishing for it to come back and be reprinted. Reid Fleming has been back since and been reprinted by the creator, talk about that instead of wishing for McFarlane to steal the rights from Boswell. Beanworld's on the way back right now and has also seen new episodes since, talk about those instead of wishing Todd had robbed his highest-level executive of his only creative property. Zot had three reprint books and you didn't buy them, why say you would have if someone had done them without the permission or involvement of the creator?

(Also book 4 is not out now and never will be, he's done issue #s 11-18 and 21-36 as one new volume instead.)

And David Boswell always wanted James Gandolfini for the Reid Fleming movie but it fell apart when the Sopranos took off.

Aaand I wish that Watchmen had never been made into a movie, but don't understand why other people who feel the same way are saying they're keen to give money to it and cross their fingers! Snyder's been a complete cock about the author's wishes, anything he says about fidelity to the work is pretty much pointless.

Whoa, holdup, Cynicalman is now being mentioned on ILX? Excellent.

Matt Feazell is a great guy, and one of the pleasures of living in S.E. Michigan for all those years was running into him here & there. I think I still have several minicomics and a collected TPB that he autographed for me.

Also, Malin Akerman is crazy hott in the trailer

Reid Fleming has been back since and been reprinted by the creator, talk about that instead of wishing for McFarlane to steal the rights from Boswell. ..Zot had three reprint books and you didn't buy them, why say you would have if someone had done them without the permission or involvement of the creator?

wtf are you talking about, nobody said or wished for any such things.

Dueds this trailer/stills/etc make me think the movie will be 1000x better than my imaginings of what a Watchmen movie would be. So I'm pretty stoked. I mean it is a movie, give it a bit of a fucking break.

Also, maybe it's bcz I've only read it 2x, but I had to even look up why the crap that Black Freighter stuff was in there in the first place. And even then, I was like, "oh, I see the point, but it sure kind of killed the rhythm/thrills." IMO, natch. So I suppose T.S. Eliot and Scott McCloud are mourning my loutish inability to piece it all together in one go, but srsly, I think it is the kind of thing that would alienate a movie audience. And there's the animated DVD, so I think it's all rather silly to pick at.

I wonder what everyone here would say about a SANDMANG movie.

Okay guys, I am making SANDMANG movie and I'm only including the Kindly Ones plot. And Dream is going to have pointy nipples. Asassinate me!