Liebezeit vs Baker vs Bruford vs ____________________

(There's a point around 2:30 where it looks like Vinnie is playing a one-handed roll!)

Almost a fun read from Steve Vai:

"I was just enamored with Vinnie. Back in the Frank days, his whole approach, when I heard Vinnie play, his phrasing - it satisfied something in my heart. It was easy to get certain rhythmic gratification from straight up-and-down-type players. Playing grooves, alternate grooves here and there. But Vinnie just came in and threw a wrench into the works. The guy is an alien. He was able to touch buttons with his sense of polyrhythms that no one has ever done. Frank's band was the perfect soundboard for that. I started transcribing his playing for The Frank Zappa Book. I mean, there's five to six different notations for the hi-hat!" (laughs)

"I'll tell you a really great Vinnie story. He's one of the most amazing sight-readers that ever existed on the instrument. One day we were in a Frank rehearsal, this was early '80s, and Frank brought in this piece of music called "Mo 'N Herb's Vacation." Just unbelievably complex. All the drums were written out, just like "The Black Page" except even more complex. There were these runs of like 17 over 3 and every drumhead is notated differently. And there were a whole bunch of people there, I think Bozzio was there."

"Vinnie had this piece of music on the stand to his right. To his left he had another music stand with a plate of sushi on it, okay? Now the tempo of the piece was very slow, like "The Black Page." And then the first riff came in, [mimics bizarre Zappa-esque drum rhythm patterns] with all these choking of cymbals, and hi-hat, ruffs, spinning of rototoms and all this crazy stuff. And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining part of the bar."

"It was the sickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just started laughing."

Always, not almost a fun read. Whoops.

Steve Vai, almost a guitarist I want to hear.

i wouldn't call that a one-handed roll, he's playing double strokes to fill in between the right hand notes, but you're right, facility is not an issue for any of these dudes.

haha, i was trying to find a video of buddy rich doing a one-handed roll and i came across this one that i hadn't seen before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V4Aqs2D48

"shit!" (1:24)

The classic Vinnie story, love it.

just wanted to mention I'm listening on Spotify to an album Jaki did with Pascal Comelade, Pierre Bastien and Jac Berrocal called Oblique Sessions and it fucking rules and is reminding me how oddly inscrutable is his greatness. On paper it seems like Jaki has a very simple approach and should be very copyable but no imitator sounds like him.

LL, I think you would like Pram. Seconding the recommendation of their album Helium. And their EP Meshes. They have a toytown bros quay thing going on. Their drummer ain't no Jaki but I can cert believe he loves him.

Both Moonshake and Pram rule. I have respect for Long Fin Killie but never want to listen to them.

Also - Jaki & Pierre Bastien? OMG, must hear.

yeeeeeeeeeees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pJoiRGGxco

the dude in Beak> sounds kind of like Jaki Liebezeit

my favorite Pram song, one of my alltime favorite songs period, is "Chrysalis".

i think the guy on the vid is their current drummer. i dig him just fine but you should check out mid period pram (helium & sargasso sea plus the eps from that era) for some serious jaki grooves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6csU_OLskUo

the dude in Beak> sounds kind of like Jaki Liebezeit

isn't that Geoff Barrow (main Portishead dude)?

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:40 AM (2 hours ago)

lol same video i posted yesterday. great tho!

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:11 AM (3 hours ago)

fight

i wish Pram's singer didn't sound like Laetitia Sadier so much

Jeebus, Pram still exists? I saw them open for Sea & Cake in DC in maybe ... '97? '96?

yeah I thought about responding to that tarfumes post, but I mean if Steve Gadd is your definition of a "hack" and you consider him to be a similar drummer to Dave Weckyl, why bother.

I always thought Soul Coughing's drummer Yuval Gabay was a lot like Liebezeit too.

Pram have been around since 1990.

i wish Pram's singer didn't sound like Laetitia Sadier so much

Oh hai

re: Gadd et al, there's this weird slick oily film all over everything they do that really puts me off. But more than that, I don't hear any tension or drive or excitement or depth in their playing. fwiw.

I can see saying that about Weckyl, but not Gadd

Weckl, sry, keep putting in the y

For tension, drive, and excitement from Gadd, I think "Aja" is a great example. Pretty much my go-to song for him.

I will say there are records I love that Gadd's on where he doesn't bug/distract me (Aja, except for his solo bit, and some Paul Simon things). But there's a commonality in approach that I hear where they're both laying back in the same kind of way; not necessarily playing behind the beat, but playing very, I dunno, relaxed, but in a way that (probably irrationally) strikes me as smug.

I will say that I don't always love his sound -- it can be on the dry and dead side for my tastes.

Pram has a singer?

Yes, Rosie! Its p much 'her' band iirc? Listen to 'chrysalis' on ye spotify!

Don't hold Weckyl's '80s hair against him.

Gadd looks smug because he is a survivor. Aaaaample drugs.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2ylOmIkzU

Grrr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2ylOmIkzU

I've been following this thread for 2 weeks and just noticed Baker's name. There's absolutely no way that Ginger rates with either of the other two, that's just silly.

ginger baker is a dude who like ever since I have been playing drums I have heard people rating highly and then I would check him out, and even when I was a beginner I was kind of scratching my head, like maybe there was something I didn't get about the nuance of his drumming

There is no nuance in his drumming, that's the point. Like Elvin Jones said, "This guy plays like he has delusions of grandeur".

there are only two drummers who've done work that I insist on making people listen to (as in "you gotta check out the drumming on this track"). Jaki and Jim White. Bruford is amazing but it's like he's not even human, I dunno.

nb: I am not a drummer

I think Mitch Mitchell is a drummer from the same era who wears "jazz influence" way better than Baker and gets a lot less credit. I love Mitch Mitchell's drumming.

Mitchell! Spanish Castle Magic...those triplet fills!

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I think I had such a tough time with this I ended up not voting. But on balance my love for KC pushes it to Bruford.

ooooooommmmmmmmggggggg
i don't know how i avoided knowing this before, but i just learned that Jaki's bday is the same as three of my best friends (5/26 -- happy belated birthday!)

also he was born in 1938 so he's getting pretty old! he's still in good health right?

how is his ticker

Reliable iirc

i finally got around to buying secret rhythms -- i got #3 -- are the rest of them as good as #3?
what is he doing these days? i know he was interviewed for the tago mago 33 1/3 book but i haven't read it.

happy 77th bday to Jaki!!

HB JL!!!

I defer to him as the ne plus ultra of JLs

Just ordered the tago mago book last week actually

Shook the great man's hand last night, no photo evidence unfortunately. He seems a bit deaf (he is 77 after all) so didn't try to engage him in conversation.

More info pls! Did you see him play?

Yeah he was playing with Hans-Joachim Irmler of Faust. Playing a tiny drumkit which barely came up to his knees, no bass drum. Irmler was playing his original homemade organ from early Faust days, which I made sure I had a good look at, it really is homemade!

What kind of stuff did Jaki play? What else is he doing these days? I saw that Ginger Baker is playing here (Chicago) and turned up my nose but I would elbow people out of the way to see Jaki.