Finally Rich - Chief Keef

I am willing to bet money that no one in the studio told Keef that his hemiola was dope after any take.

― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:57 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and i doubt people said that to jazz musicians using it either whats your point?

Partially because I doubt the term would be common usage but mostly because nothing I've heard Keef do on record has anything to do with the concept of hemiola

― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:59 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my pt was that he's using an atypical rhythmic trick there, which is undeniably true

this fredo santana song is all over the fucking place, er, I mean, he's truly a master of hemiola in the Elvin Jones tradition

― tuostprophets (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:53 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the entire thing had nothing to do w/ the micro level of being slightly off beat which is a longtime affect of his flow and was about a particular answer but yr Intentionally Misinterpret An Argument tactic is dumb

the notion that an artist needs to be consciously aware that the rhythmic technique he's using has a precedent and a name in music theory is beside the point / has nothing to do w/ whether or not he's consciously using it

can't you guys just admit that you kept giving david shit about this because "hemiola" is an absurdly ridiculous phrase

just like, the sound of it

and i doubt people said that to jazz musicians using it either whats your point?

― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my pt was that he's using an atypical rhythmic trick there, which is undeniably true

― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:18 AM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the undeniable chops and evident years and years of careful practice and woodshedding inherant in Chief Keef and Fredo Santana definitely lead me to believe that they are using "tricks" from the jazz arsenal instead of just being shitty rappers who can't stay on a beat

what i'm getting out of this is that none of you know what hemiola means

xp

and i doubt people said that to jazz musicians using it either whats your point?

well now my point is "you don't read what other people write" considering that here you are parroting back at me something that I JUST WROTE

xp: hold on there, Jordan

chief keef was recording for five years and wasn't using tricks from 'the jazz arsenal' but rather tricks from popular music that are unusual for a rapper to use in a flow, the only reason we associate hemiola w/ jazz is 70+ years of theoretical writing (which, incidentally, was written after the fact, not something that jazz musicians were consciously like "now i shall employ hemiola") which came in its wake.

and the off-beat affect of keef's flow isn't what we're talking abt here at all but keep changing the subject

you guys can't be serious

there is nothing funnier than a hopeless double-down but I am afraid one day we're going to accidentally Ottify deej

He moola

the jazz musicians you're talking about had chops, is the thing

you don't gotta have theory but you do gotta have chops

just for the record i'm pretty sure it's used specifically to refer to repeated dotted quarter note / 3 against 2 rhythms, and Rev's track that i'm talking about in the revive is actually doing that. but please keep arguing about whether keef is intentionally (slightly) off beat or not.

xp

guys

well now my point is "you don't read what other people write" considering that here you are parroting back at me something that I JUST WROTE

xp: hold on there, Jordan

― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:23 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am very much reading what you wrote. jazz musicians today do use the word 'hemiola' but again, 70+ years of theoretical writing. jazz musicians today are also going to jazz programs at universities.

in the evolution of jazz historically, the hemiola was a device that was used, even if the artist didnt know it had a particular name. certainly a few of the artists w/ classical training & after the arrival of bebop would have been aware of what the real name of it was.

w/ the keef example with big lean, he was kicking a flow i wasn't familiar with that seemed to arrive at a different time on the beat than usual. i wasnt' sure if there was a musicological term to describe what he was doing (although I certainly would expect that he wouldn't know if there was)

people who wanted to believe that i have some completely overanalyzed, overintellectualized relationship w/ this music and that i don't 'get' it's purpose want to believe that I'm making some argument about him being a technical wizard genius which isn't what i'm doing ... all i said was that he took a novel rhythmic approach

ppl are giving you shit but no one is seriously thinking you're saying that. it's just, we're suggesting instead of him having a "novel rhythmic approach" maybe he's just sloppy and not very good as a rapper?

right and i'm talking about a particular example where he is clearly making a conscious effort to do something different so your opinion of his usual flow is kind of irrelevant

he is not "clearly making a conscious effort to do something different" - that's clear to you. To others, who know at least as much about music as you do, it just sounds like he's rapping badly.

however if you wanna go Death of the Author and say the hemiola's there for the careful reader well n'est pas hors-texte & whatnot

haha, oh right, that's the track we're talking about it. not do to this again but i still maintain that the engineer misaligned the vocal track.

Which track is it again?

haha, oh right, that's the track we're talking about it. not do to this again but i still maintain that the engineer misaligned the vocal track.

this seems clear to me, too - as I said back when the hemiola first reared its head, it sounds like Keef can't hear the beat. that means either a) he actually couldn't, or b) he could, but the vocal track in (most likely) Pro Tools got dragged a little ways one way or the other in mix

as a side note, big lean def sounds like a big sean fan which is funny bc his name is one letter off

Big Yawn

just for the record i'm pretty sure it's used specifically to refer to repeated dotted quarter note / 3 against 2 rhythms, and Rev's track that i'm talking about in the revive is actually doing that. but please keep arguing about whether keef is intentionally (slightly) off beat or not.

Yes, I know this, which is why I keep cracking up that deej chose "hemiola" as an example and seems determined to go down in flames defending the choice rather than saying "maybe that was a bad example"

mind-bending

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4jAa5Za-nQ

xp: hold on there, Jordan

retracted

Yes, I know this, which is why I keep cracking up that deej chose "hemiola" as an example and seems determined to go down in flames defending the choice rather than saying "maybe that was a bad example"

― SHAUN (DJP), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:02 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was obv a bad example bc people just like saying the word over & over—it was merely an example of a macro rhythmic trick as opposed to a micro ('he's so off beat!') one

Can we change the name of this thread to something that has hemiola in it please?

this seems clear to me, too - as I said back when the hemiola first reared its head, it sounds like Keef can't hear the beat. that means either a) he actually couldn't, or b) he could, but the vocal track in (most likely) Pro Tools got dragged a little ways one way or the other in mix

― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:00 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

im willing to believe the latter is also a possibility. it doesn't sound like he can't hear the beat at all though...he's still rapping to a beat of some kind

that's why i think it's misaligned, because the rhythm in his track is internally consistent but consistently off from the beat.

xp that's what I think is the case - he heard it when he tracked it. sorry if this is almost doubtless overexplaining shit you already know but when you track in Pro Tools (and I assume in any other digital protocol but PT is the standard, p much everybody uses it) whatever you're playing ends up on a track like here:

http://cdn.uberreview.com/wp-content/uploads/pt.jpg

you can click and drag on anything in there and move it right or left, and producing in pro tools is basically untold hours of clicking and dragging - moving beats over, words over, deleting regions you don't like and pasting in parts you do, etc. I have no idea how producers can stand it, it's numbing to watch. but I recently had a track dragged about an inch and a half to the right accidentally, because everybody was tired, and we didn't know it had happened and when we listened to playback, it sounded like nobody could hear anybody else.

I have no idea how producers can stand it, it's numbing to watch

i would hate to do it for music that's supposed to sound live and seamless and untouched by the cold digital hands, but it's fun when it's the creative method you're using to make the music happen (ie rap beats or electronic music).

step up in Deej's town
you know everything is
he-mi-ola
he-mi-ola
he-mi-ola

the 'engineer messed up' theory makes no sense to me because there's songs all over Keef's major label album where the vocals wobble in the vicinity of the beat in the exact same way, it seems consistent with performances throughout his career

he's still rapping to a beat of some kind

― rap steve gadd (D-40), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:10 AM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post

The beat of his own drummer, man

y'all are hemiolaphiliacs

i swear i'll still be reading this conversation in 5 years' time

he should do a track with that dude from das racist, heemsiola

the 'engineer messed up' theory makes no sense to me because there's songs all over Keef's major label album where the vocals wobble in the vicinity of the beat in the exact same way, it seems consistent with performances throughout his career

― deez the season (some dude), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:39 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

are you trolling or

nah -- that verse sounds like a lot of his verses to me. the fact that you seem to advocate that the verse is either deliberately rhythmically complex OR the result of an engineering accident as if those 2 theories are in any way compatible seems more like trolling to me.

you seem to be the only one who doesn't hear a difference between that particular song and his others. is the difference between his flow being slightly off the beat and the actual placement of his words w/in each measure not a concept you're grasping or

ok, so if i'm wrong and that verse is unique and glaring -- which theory do you support? is it him doing rhythmic backflips or a lousy engineer? it can't be both.

he is soooo nice lol i herd his gang killed lil jojo rotf

most sweetest post-oj da juice can't-have-my-cocaine weed music

chicago is a seriously mixed crows

we went over that when it was first discussed, sd