I would think its fairly obvious that Rorscach's "principles" exist solely as a rationalization for his violent mysanthropy - which he himself makes pretty explicitly clear in his "origin story" issue. It isn't exactly a consistent moral code as much as it is simple self-justification, an excuse for him to do horrible things to people.
"not quitting" is a principle?
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:04 (fifteen years ago) link
oh wait yr a sock puppet aren't you
the comedian's willful amorality is a sort of principle
i accept the argument that rorschach is the only character in the comic who really fights to maintain his own morality as well as the moral order of the world around him (though his pursuit of this is clearly insane/delusional). viedt's superficial morality is a self serving sham to be abandoned when convenient, dreiberg lacks the courage of whatever convictions he imagines he has, dr. manhattan has "transcended" such trivial concerns, and laurie s... well, moore doesn't seem terribly interested in her moral agency.
it's tempting to criticize rorschach's ostensible morality as mere self-justification, but the same could be said of anyone who casts themselves as judge & jury in ethical matters. rorshach seems bound by the principles he seeks to impose on others, and that's close enough to count.
finally, it seems absurd to suggest that a morality must be human or empathetic in order to be valid. moral systems can be indifferent to suffering, or even cruel. only requirement is that the system define the good/acceptable and the bad/unacceptable.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:13 (fifteen years ago) link
its more than not quitting, its about doing one's duty, doing whats best for the country. who cares if he did it in vain (and knew his attempts were vain). he did "the best a man can do" anyways.
― CaptainLorax, Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:13 (fifteen years ago) link
doing one's duty, doing whats best for the country
hahaha wtf
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:15 (fifteen years ago) link
are you defending the comdedian??? he didn't "do his duty". he fucked shit up, raped and murdered, for money and for fun.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:16 (fifteen years ago) link
it was in the best interests of the country that he impregnate and kill that Vietnamese peasant!
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:17 (fifteen years ago) link
the country is his audience. he had a government job. he was doing what they think is the best for the country. rape and murder is something they didn't know about and I wont back him up there.
also "willful amorality is a sort of principle " is a good way to describe the other point I was making higher up
― CaptainLorax, Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:18 (fifteen years ago) link
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj242/donaldparsley/habbah.jpg
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:20 (fifteen years ago) link
rape and murder is something they didn't know about
O RLY
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:21 (fifteen years ago) link
(not clear at all that he raped her, btw)
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:22 (fifteen years ago) link
The Comedian is a horrible human being (but i'm not getting into the 'rape' and murder - makes me not like him - America didn't know about it, only a select few)
but he has principles. that's what I was arguing about. his perspective fits perfectly with the book - and that's what I like about him. once again, he was the only one that figured out what a joke everything is.
― CaptainLorax, Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:24 (fifteen years ago) link
it seems absurd to suggest that a morality must be human or empathetic in order to be valid. moral systems can be indifferent to suffering, or even cruel. only requirement is that the system define the good/acceptable and the bad/unacceptable.
hey I see where you're comin from - its just that since its always humans devising moral systems inevitably what is designated as good/unacceptable and bad/unacceptable is done in the context of human behavior (altho lolz I would love to see a moral system that, say, designates gravity or dirt as unacceptable). I'll grant you that there are moral systems that don't require any empathy or have any issues with inflicting suffering (nazis, stalinists, islamo-fascists, etc.) but by and large these systems are more like outbreaks of mass psychosis and I have a hard time really accepting them as moral. But then what do I know I am a pansy liberal.
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 February 2009 23:28 (fifteen years ago) link
adam is a fanboy. i think he hates the film.http://thequietus.com/articles/01215-the-watchmen-reviewed-has-it-killed-the-comic-book-adaptation-dead
― mark e, Friday, 27 February 2009 14:56 (fifteen years ago) link
only requirement is that the system define the good/acceptable and the bad/unacceptable.
Good how? Bad how? Good for health? Legally good? Aesthetically? Scientifically? Religously? Ok there might be some overlap between some these terms but you can't get away without defining any terms whatsoever. Obviously humanity is the concern of human morality - which is the only kind we currently know. And I would argue that suffering, or lack of, is intrinsically a concern of morality. A system that ignores suffering or even promotes it is by definition amoral or immoral.
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 15:09 (fifteen years ago) link
The morality question is a major philosophical discussion that could make up its own thread. Personally, I think the inherent ambiguity of the terms "good" and "bad" render this statement incorrect: A system that ignores suffering or even promotes it is by definition amoral or immoral. The reason I believe this is because I do not think morality in its strictest terms is about alleviating suffering; it is about adhering to a code of ethics, whose rules in and of themselves have been designated as desirable or "good" based on a set of observations and principles that are by no means guaranteed to be liberal, humanistic, or particularly nice.
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 15:21 (fifteen years ago) link
Y'all need one (1) of this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wSCX%2BqQFL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg
― lolling through my bagel (Pancakes Hackman), Friday, 27 February 2009 15:29 (fifteen years ago) link
i'm a clicking, but i still cant look inside.
― mark e, Friday, 27 February 2009 15:33 (fifteen years ago) link
want/do not want
morality discussion sinkhole: Morality - Ethics
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 15:33 (fifteen years ago) link
adam is a fanboy.i think he hates the film.http://thequietus.com/articles/01215-the-watchmen-reviewed-has-it-killed-the-comic-book-adaptation-dead
― mark e, Friday, February 27, 2009 9:56 AM (39 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
anyone who writes this annoyingly hating it makes me wanna see it opening night
― bobby dijindal (and what), Friday, 27 February 2009 15:37 (fifteen years ago) link
more from adam re the film away from the OTT-ness of that review :
My girlfriend never read watchmen and she thought it was shocking. Without knowing the source material, a whole gang of it doesn't make sense!
i guess thats more on the button.
― mark e, Friday, 27 February 2009 15:38 (fifteen years ago) link
Why are the people who hate this writing so badly about it? I look forward to reading a decent review, positive or negative. "The worst comic book movie ever to see daylight?" Ah, calm down and shut up.
(He's wrong about the new ending too - it's actually cleverer and more logical than the book.)
― Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 27 February 2009 15:59 (fifteen years ago) link
ledge:
1) "Humanist" does not mean "concerned with humanity.
2) Thinking about morality exclusively in terms of alleviating suffering is a very modern, Western phenomenon. In most pre-modern or non-Western cultures, lack of suffering is at most a fortunate side-effect of moral behavior, and morality is defined largely through other concepts. (cf. Confucianism)
― i fuck mathematics, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:00 (fifteen years ago) link
no
http://www.matt-d.com/ghetto/spoiler.jpeg
plz
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link
plot spoilers that is i don't mind morality spoilers.
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:03 (fifteen years ago) link
Sorry - didn't think that counted as a spoiler.
― Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:07 (fifteen years ago) link
nah but it could lead to discussion of the end of the film, i know it's different somehow from the comic but not keen to find out how till i see it.
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:09 (fifteen years ago) link
o man what is the deal with that quietus review
― just sayin, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:13 (fifteen years ago) link
― O Supermanchiros (blueski), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:20 (fifteen years ago) link
Holy jesus is that a horribly written review. I thought The Quietus had much higher standards than that.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:20 (fifteen years ago) link
IFmaths and HIDERE OTM re: morality. the "good and bad" i mentioned earlier merely refer to the moral dimension of human behavior. good = morally good, bad = morally bad. the moral system is simply that which defines and attaches value to the distinction. a moral system could, for instance, simply state that strict obedience to a tribal code = good, and any deviation from that code = bad.
A system that ignores suffering or even promotes it is by definition amoral or immoral.― ledge
― ledge
this is only true from within the confines of your own moral POV. it is there better described as moral judgement regarding moral sytems than as an objective definition of such.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:23 (fifteen years ago) link
...too much "simply"
and, yeah, that quietus review, while daunting, is also fantastically annoying
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:24 (fifteen years ago) link
fine don't use the thread i bumped for this then [cries]
good = morally good, bad = morally bad
eh but we're arguing exactly about the definition of morality!
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:39 (fifteen years ago) link
ie what does 'morally' mean there?
n most pre-modern or non-Western cultures, lack of suffering is at most a fortunate side-effect of moral behavior, and morality is defined largely through other concepts
um this is a weird thing to say. Buddhism springs to mind - Hinduism too, to some extent, insofar as the "goal" is to get oneself off the Wheel of Karma
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:41 (fifteen years ago) link
I will grant that most pagan cultures were not particularly concerned with suffering.
ha was about to say, druids and Aztecs?
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:43 (fifteen years ago) link
those vikings just wanted what was best for everybody!
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:44 (fifteen years ago) link
my point, ledge, is that "morally good" has no meaning outside the confines of a moral system. moral systems are arbitration devices. they're like god. they simply label certain things as "BAD" and other things as "GOOD". whatever god says is good is good. period. there need be no definition of "the good" beyond the understanding that it is what god likes.
therefore, when i say "morally," i simply mean, "according to the precepts of the moral system in play". some moral systems prize a kind of moral logic (for instance the idea that that which decreases suffering is more moral than that which increases it), but others do not. objectively speaking, neither approach is more moral or more valid than the other.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 17:15 (fifteen years ago) link
You're just avoiding the question! BAD how? Bad for my health? For my chances of getting into heaven? For my chances of not being cast out of the tribe?
According to your all-encompassing 'definition', 'being good at darts' is a moral law of my local pub darts team.
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 17:20 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't know if it's a moral law but it's certainly a virtue!
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 17:22 (fifteen years ago) link
thing about your darts team's expectations is that they (probably) don't result in moral judgement. to suck at darts isn't to be a "bad person", but rather to be useless for the purposes of the team. this is a pragmatic, utility-based judgement rather than a moral one.
i'm not avoiding your question though, just trying to reframe is. thing is, there is no single answer to the "bad how?" question. different moral systems define the bad differently. rorschach's moral system, for instance, defines the BAD as softness, weakness, relativism, cowardice, corruption, lust, etc. it does not seem to be based on a pragmatic determination that these things often cause unwanted effects, but rather on an idealistic judgement that they are intrisically wrong, regardless of what outcomes they generate.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 17:31 (fifteen years ago) link
can this all be put on hold until the movie comes out?
― Fight scenes don't hold a candle to Asian action (forksclovetofu), Friday, 27 February 2009 18:00 (fifteen years ago) link
It's true that moral badness often seems to be intrinsic, neverthless there must something at the core of these concepts, otherwise why do we seem to know what judgements are moral ones, and why do moral systems always seem to convern themselves judgements about the same kinds of things? When examined properly, I'd argue that the domain of morality is (human) life and living - generally, how to live for the good (ie flourishing) of the tribe.
xp i did revive another thread for this but everyone wanted to play here!
― ledge, Friday, 27 February 2009 18:02 (fifteen years ago) link
or at least abstracted and moved to the morality/ethics thread
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 18:02 (fifteen years ago) link
Morality - Ethics for those looking for it
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 18:03 (fifteen years ago) link
but which of these desires violates Ape Law and which uphold it?
― kingfish, Friday, 27 February 2009 18:12 (fifteen years ago) link
didn't wanna move to other thread, cuz then i'd feel compelled to read and deal. both of which i'm averse to. but i'll quit after this:
lemme just say that while i agree in general w what yr saying, ledge, i think the semblance of intrinsic-ness (intrisicity?) is a big part of what makes moral systems what they are. if a moral system were truly and transparently pragmatic in ALL respects, it wouldn't really be a moral system anymore. it would simply be a flexible, situation dependent, bean-counting approach to relative costs and benefits (costs & benefits being considered in as many senses as possible, objective & subjective, long & short term, individual & group, etc). i'd argue that moral systems are distinguished in part by their insistence on the existence and value of idealized & codified absolutes that do not require this kind of objective, outcome-based validation.
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 18:14 (fifteen years ago) link
watchman dat ho
― That's not just me saying that, that's the Pentagon. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 February 2009 18:15 (fifteen years ago) link
http://www.cracked.com/article_17072_7-stages-nerdgasm-fanboy-awaits-watchmen-movie.html
― cool like a bass (latebloomer), Friday, 27 February 2009 19:22 (fifteen years ago) link