Class and race: enemies of creativity in pop?

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Tom: For Reception Theory, check
www.unorth.ac.za/Faculty/Arts/English/virtclass/ reception/reception.htm
It's basically just that structuralist thing about the death of the author. Critics deciding to concentrate on how texts are created by their reception rather than by authorial intention. On class: Class is not just a way to describe people's objective economic relations with each other. There is also a subjective, sociological element to class. Marx called a group of people who shared objective economic interests a 'class in itself'. But only when they developed class consciousness and agreed that this divided them from others subjectively did they become a 'class for itself', and therefore potentially revolutionary. You could say that, in these terms, Japan has many 'classes in themselves' (rich, poor, management, workers) which never become 'classes for themselves' because of the national emphasis on consensus. Britain, on the other hand, could be seen as a country riddled with 'classes for themselves' (people giving themselves airs or refusing to 'know their place') which are based on subjective criteria like snobbism or inverted snobbism rather than real economic common interest. Both are, in Marxist terms, counter-revolutionary. In neither case do objective class interests line up with subjective class identities, leading to action. But UK class consciousness is divisive and energy- intensive (I disagree with you that it's 'fun'), whereas Japanese class blindness allows people to get on with other stuff. Like making rough- hewn yakimono pots or inventing Postpet, I suppose.

― Momus, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

And since evidence for reception is sometimes somewhat lacking in any OTHER form, RT often amounts to precis lists of contemporary newspaper reviews: kinda like interpeting the 80s and 90s thru the lens of Steve Lamacq's live pages... Clever academics can often be weirdly dim: ignore Ruskin on Turner (= elitist constructionism) in favour of the median 1860s hack at the Manchester Guardian (= vox pop/vox dei)

(Oh: now I'm *attacking* hacks... Sorry.)

― mark s, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Reception Theory: right, that's what I guessed it would be. The receiver "rather than" producer I'm not keen on, I prefer it as a question of differing emphases - what produces the most interesting outcome?

The subjective overlay that is 'class' is what I meant by dramatising/euphemising etc. (I don't agree that class is 'fun' either, I was just throwing out a list of how it might work, except that in the UK class is emphasised and exploited all the time for its comic potential).

― Tom, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

hey, what's all this going on about japan? of course the uk is pathetically obsessed with class, but i rarely see it mentioned in art reviews over here across the pond unless someone has created art that deals with that (like vanilla ice saying 'from the streets yo' and being outed), which seems sort of like this suspiciously wonderful utopia of art that is japan. sure, we also have all that nasty race stuff in our musical history (which, while certainly a bad thing, didn't impair us creatively), but now we're over that now and all our pop is colorblind and shiny and working outside that (cf. trl etc etc). so, other then the fact that you're momus and stuff, why japan?

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don’t see talking about class as the ‘English class problem’. Our obsession with letting-it-all-hang-out class-wise is a strength – externalisation and all that. Supposedly class-less structures are far more invidious – too much denial and repression… (I have had discussions with American friends who swear blind that Bill Gates is ‘middle class’.)

― Guy, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

bill gates is one of the most hated men in america.

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But I doubt Gates is hated purely due to his money -- I think a lot of that is to do with the quality of his software and his business tactics.

― Nicole, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

the only reason the quality of microsoft's product and business practices is so often brought up is beacause of their huge success. there are hundreds more monstrous corporations that do far worse and get by because they aren't as instantly recognisable.

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If you've had Windows crash as many times as most people have, I doubt you can say it's brought up mainly because of Gates' wealth.

And the reason he is attacked more often is because he presents himself as the public face of the company. You don't see the owners of Union Carbide in the press very often, do you?

― Nicole, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Anyway, more to the point, re: the US and class, is the fact that both candidates in the presidential election were aristocrats, the equivalent of which hasn't happened in the UK, for instance, since the late 19th century

― mark morris, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nick's definition of "class for itself" seems a bit off, though in the clever way that he tends to be off. A "class for itself" according to Marx is precisely a class which grasps its historical purpose and true economic interests. We might term what Momus speaks of as a "class [aware] of itself". Oh, and artistic energy going into kulturkampf is only irritating if you find the very existance of class more or less frustrating. Which is not a slur, I don't think.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'm using Marxist terminology without subscribing to Marx's belief that classes had 'manifest destinies', and that the triumph of the proletariat and socialism was a scientific certainty. Remove that (a religious faith dressed up as science) and the distinction between a 'class in itself' and a 'class for itself' becomes a matter of whether people choose to make differences in status (which are inevitable,even in communist societies), wealth and power 'structuring differences' or not.

The reason I harp on about Japan is because in some ways it's a nice control experiment for discussions about Britain. It's an island with a history of imperialist adventures, it's developed, they eat fish, they drive on the left, talented creative people go into commercial art, etc. But in Japan everyone has agreed to call themselves middle class and put petty jealousies off the agenda, which makes for a very * pleasant* atmosphere (not to mention absence of IRA bombs etc).

I asked my Japanese friends what they would do, given unlimited power, to engineer Japan-like conditions in Britain. Shizu said 'Replace Christianity with Buddhism'. (Christianity is revolutionary, Buddhism is stoical.) Chie said 'Turn the clock back to Medieval Britain, then suddenly add post-industrial superstructure.'

― Momus, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No worry about the IRA in Japan, no. But what about cults killing hundreds with poison gas? All I'm saying here is that I think Nick has a fairly idealized connection with particular elements of Japan. If you're touristing, you can get away with this. But if you're an actual part of any particular society, it becomes increasingly difficult to retain such illusions.

Americans sometimes, I think, look towards England because the absence of the race divide (in the same way at least) seems attractive, from afar.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ethan: I wasn't accusing the actual class structure itself of being outmoded, just the way media people talk about it and dramatise it as being same.

All this stuff about Japan and a consensual, settled society is interesting because Britain, in the 50s and 60s, aspired to much the same thing; the ethos of the whole setup was stability and work ethic (cf XTC's "Earn Enough For Us"), and while the old Victorian class structure still prevailed to a great extent, the emphasis was on a common identity and culture; arguably this country has shifted much more towards "classes for themselves" in the last 30 years or so. But much was hidden behind this; I believe strongly that British people feel "freer" than they ever did, and I would rather see "classes for themselves" than everyone in the UK pretending to be the same.

Nick's argument for creativity-out-of-a-stultifying-consensus-of-a- national-dream in Japan reminds me in many ways of that old played- out chestnut that growing up in such a society created the explosion of creativity in British pop music in the 60s. But I'm not sure whether I believe in societies putting on a consensual sheen (as it were), which is one reason why I'm not sure I would necessarily want to live in Japan, or feel it would suit me best (though it nevertheless fascinates me).

― The Space Between, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sterling: I think British people sometimes look towards the US because of the apparent absence (probably also very idealised) of such a complex, multi-layered class structure (or at least, the absence of a class structure which seems so *ancient*). Jonathan Freedland's writings on this subject are *very* interesting.

― Tamariu, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nick has a fairly idealized connection with particular elements of Japan. If you're touristing, you can get away with this. But if you're an actual part of any particular society, it becomes increasingly difficult to retain such illusions.

Well, I'm currently living in Japan, writing for a Japanese magazine (Relax), collaborating with Japanese music artists for Japan-only releases. With my Kahimi Karie hits I was actually instrumental in helping define one of the key Japanese youth movements of the 90s, Shibuya Kei, to the extent that people in the west listening to compilations of Japanese pop ('Sushi 3003' etc.) were actually listening to my image of Japan becoming Japan's (export) image of itself. I think that makes me more than a tourist, don't you?

Japan's self-image is of course in flux -- new prime minister Koizumi has declared as his goal 'a new Meiji restoration', no less. And my image of Japan will no doubt be in flux over the next three months. But I'm curious about why the idea of a society without class tensions (summed up with the image of everyone bowing to everyone else) is so hard for some people to swallow. It's as if people are saying 'That's impossible' or 'That's unfair'. It's as if they want to prescribe for Japan the race and class problems of the west just to make a level playing field.

Why not face the fact that this country *is* different in the way it deals with class and race. Some of those differences disturb westerners -- the absence of cosmopolitan racial pluralism, for instance -- but we shouldn't deny they exist, or try to force our problems on Japan just because they represent our view of what social and economic modernity should be.

Some of the differences between Japan and Britain end up being audible on CD. I bumped into Cornelius on the street in Nakameguro last night. He was on his way to a restaurant with some friends after a day in the studio working on his follow-up to Fantasma. (I'll be hearing the rushes next Thursday.) You can bet that the new Cornelius will owe a lot of its fascination (or, to some, disappointment) to the very specific atmosphere of Japan, including the fact that Cornelius and, say, Pizzicato 5 have never been set head to head in the media as caricatural members of social classes like Blur and Oasis were. (One thing they have both done is tried, on their sleeves, to make Korean graphics trendy, which goes back to my point about race / class being no more or less important here than graphic design.)

Sorry for going on so long. A very interesting thread, citizens! Up the revolution and vive la difference!

― Momus, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Korean graphics? Hm...elaborate on the differences between that and Japanese design, if you could. I'm curious.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ned: Korean is a different alphabet, though it overlaps with Japanese enough to be legible. P5's 'Happy End Of The World' album uses Korean type, as does the inside of the 'Fantasma' booklet. It's part of an ongoing trend in Japan to explore and re-evaluate their Asian neighbours, until recently overlooked due to Japan's fascination with the west.

― Momus, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nick, you don't need to expand so much on your connection with Japan. I'm familiar with your work, and as I revealed recently on the "Electronica VS Country" thread, I'm a fan. So I know you work with these artists and such. And together you make good and pretty things. Yes. And maybe "touristing" is a bit harsh -- but if you're not a tourist, you've sure gotta admit you're a flaneur, and that you take pride in being such. Which is to say that you take what you want from where you find it, and then throw it together into what you want it to be. I personally love Japanese culture, though I'm mainly just familiar with Anime and musical exports. I find the Anime, which is more "readable" to me, to be largely haunted by ghosts of WWII. Elsewhere, I've lamented how constricting this feels, that I need to read such a rich culture in such a rigid fashion. But it keeps asserting itself, and I can't deny it. In fact, I can almost see your point -- that race and class divides stand in the way of formal innovation. Except that this formal innovation is largely driven by such divides (at least elsewhere in the world) and that in fact much of Japan's borrowings which seeded its culture were born of such race/class driven development. So here's a theory to chew on -- Japan's borrowing of race/class inflected culture from the west (and there's plenty) is a form of cultural dissent against corporatism -- just as brits look towards America for lacking the class divide (Robin, I was going to make that inverse point, btw, to make the whole thing symmetric, but then I got to thinking about how brits exoticize race in America and it got too complicated to sum up) well so too do Japanese look to the west precisely to find traits of difference. Of course, this borrowing doesn't inject such counsciousness into Japanese culture as a whole, but rather tends to be swallowed by it. So which culture is "better"? Damn I have a hard time being normative. Let's say that creativity finds an outlet no matter the prevailing social structures. Appreciation of that creativity comes from an engagement with the cultural product which can differ markedly from that cultural product's intended engagement with social reality. In other words, "better" to whom?

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I can't speak for either Japan or England, but class is the great shadow-play manipulator of American life--I might dare to say, equally as divisive as race (at least at this moment in history). The difference might be that whereas in many other countries, what you or your family once was is often as important as what you are now, in the U.S. it only matters where you exist on the class divide at any given tax-time. It may be true that moving across class lines is more easily accomplished in this country, but it's important to point out that one can move up--or down. At this time, more and more people seem to be moving down, thanks to politics, the "economic downturn," and other more occult forces.

The good thing is more and more citizens (one hopes) are becoming aware of the big lie that we're all one big happy middle class, contrary to what Hollywood movies and the Top Ten Countdown would have us believe. I've had to undergo more than one academic "sensitivity training" seminar focussing on problems between the races, but if the word "class" was ever mentioned, the moderators would quickly change the subject. Though I am by all appearances white, I feel closer in some ways to Exhibit A growing up on welfare (well, what's left of it) in a black or Hispanic or Cambodian housing project than to Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, or even your typical SUV- driving Lawnboy-riding suburbanite--and a long, long of any race--and a long, long way indeed from our own King George II and his oil empire. Also a long way from any pop stars who might like to think they're "expressing the hurt you feel, man." I grew up on welfare myself, but I guess the major difference is I somehow managed to get an education, albeit I owe my soul (as do so many scholars and artists) to the U. S. Student Loan offices. I guess this is why no matter how much I despise Eminem and pop stars in general I can understand why so many poor white kids latch on to his identification with black urban culture (both the good and the very bad).

In America we get the great majority of our cultural intake from Los Angeles, New York, and (a distant third) London. This is true no matter where you grow up; my contemporaries and I grew up almost completely unaware of my hometown's German and Irish and American Indian heritage, thanks to TV, movies, and rock music. Though Mississippi River water ran through our veins and we once had a Socialist for mayor, silly pop songs and sitcoms buzzed in our heads and motivated our adolescent rebellion or lack thereof. (So maybe mass media is the great equalizer! As long as it's dumb enough.)

So, I don't know if race or class are the most important things that "get in the way of creativity," but I certainly know money is the only thing that buys you the time to create; therein might lie your answer... Sorry to lead this topic even further astray, Master Momus--but there's one last question which I'd love to ask you: What of the Japanese once-despised Ainu population (now less than one hundred individuals, I read the other day), and what of Japan's "untouchable" class? Are they considered "middle class," too, and do they reap its benefits? Do they listen to Lolitapop, watch "Survivor," and eat McSushi? You're the expert, so speak on, oh wise one (I say without a trace of irony).

― X. Y. Zedd, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i fail to see how eminem's 'identification with black urban culture' is an inferior lifestyle choice than going off to college on a student loan.

― ethan, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh, X.Y.Zedd, what fine words you speak.

(and I'm listening to Eve's "Cowboy", and I want to kill myself. Then don't. Then do. Then do/n't.)

― Robin Carmody, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sorry, Ethan--you might have a point there, but I fail to understand it (which might be my own witlessness). How is either one a "lifestyle choice" (ugh--can't you see that's an absurd phrase and a blatant American marketing concept?), and how was I saying that they were related at all? Certainly one does not preclude the other. There are undoubtedly many poor white, black, etc. kids out there who both love Eminem AND also owe their soul to the Loan Office's country store. (The reference is to "Sixteen Tons," by the way.) Is being forced to put oneself in hock to get a college degree somehow shameful? (It is regrettable.) Maybe you're English and don't quite understand how our system works, in which case I forgive you. Or maybe it's my fault for not making myself clear in the first place. I certainly agree with what you say about Microsoft!

― X. Y. Zedd, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Excuse me, I meant "company store." The song is about coal-mining and the nefarious practice of keeping employees in debt so they must keep working for you interminably. Not so very different from working in modern America; exchange "Visa Card" for "company store."

Thanks for the kind words again, Robin!

Another day older and deeper in debt...

― X. Y. Zedd, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That Face article, to me, just seemed like dismay at discovering yet another area where the posh kids come top and don't want to talk about their privilege. As in, 'ohh, great - this is even more sewn up than we thought!' It's all part of the New Feudalism, where more abstract spaces/new industries (like the internet) are being claimed by those with the most advantages in society, after a decade where a more 'anything goes' attitude prevailed (it's feudal because it's kept en famille ever after). Cultural revolutionaries irrespective of class origins enter most creative areas first; eventually in come the cultural capitalists, shopping away. So we've already got our neo- Medieval fiefdoms with tech in every home, and people talk about the causes of bad karma instead of original sin (a silly 'progression' to an atheist like me).

People in London have a real downer about the sewn-up-ness of things right now because it's pushing up the cost of living faster than some can cope. It's really bad being priced out while feeling that this is the result of secret handshakes, etc. - instead of more basic reasons like having/not having talent or a particular gift for communication. This kind of stress is probably bad for creativity, which is why music and art here seem to be stagnating, or getting transfusions on import, or subsidies from well-off relatives. Fashion: really only do-able now if you can benefit from some kind of nepotism or patronage from New Feudalist system (just ask Stella McCartney). Our brave new multicultural world is still subject to the same old crap about origins and class - I wish I could put these issues to one side and get on with actually creating stuff but the agendas of others trying to profit from creative people or found a new corporate structure based on their labours are dictating these new, unsatisfactory terms. We're actually much closer here to the end of racism in cosmopolitan areas than news reports suggest, but this is being replaced by haves v. have-nots problems. Just ask anyone in Oxford Circus on May Day.

Maybe in Japan music (and related product) is an aspirational means of escape from the conformity inherent in the rest of the society, at least on the surface, done with less fuss because there's less for a large, moneyed middle class with recreational outlets to fuss about. And where one person sees consensus, like Momus, another will see a blinkered conformist bent. However, Japanese people of my acquaintance are just as capable of bitching about trustafarians as anyone else - the Japanese in London for two big exhibits are all annoyed about stinking rich Zen artist (and Bjork ripper-offer) Mariko Mori! And the designer Koji Mizutani, spurred to create by Tokyo student activism of 30 years ago, told me trendy Japanese are too busy shopping for new toys and clothes to be concerned about the inequalities in their own society, never mind anywhere else. But they're no different from those with privilege anywhere that takes Visa.

― suzy, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'Ainu' - asked one of my oriental associates about them and it was like some ricki lake -' my black man is too black' thing - but he said stocky and hairy.

forthcoming WWF presentation - those people who work for their money vs. those people whose money works for them - im the renegade stakeholda with 'mr pointy' sharpened.

'marx iz good on production but we iz inna consumer age'

― Chomsky izza rudebwoy, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Suzi, what do you mean by "neo-Medieval fiefdoms with tech in every home"?

Is this a means of suggesting that people in metropolitan areas are more aware of the internet than the rest of us?

I don't believe that's true.

― Robin Carmody, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

*trying to find any reference at all to rural vs metropolitan in Suze's post*

― Patrick, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Neo-Medieval fiefdom: I'm afraid I can only think of weird media examples to show you what this means rather than a textbook definition, sorry. We have lots of talk about dynastic succession amongst capitalists like Rupert Murdoch, or the 'courtly' systems in evidence in fashion or art. Or neo-yuppie global teens living with their parents who then underwrite, and then interfamilially own, the flats of their brats. This is just my little buzzphrase and I'm adding flourishes to it every day. That we're already jousting over it makes me think I might be on to something.

I think it's safe to say that no matter where most of the people posting here actually do live, they inhabit an abstract cosmopolitan space thanks to the wonders of what is now cheap, accessible technology. This should be liberating and creative rather than divisive and didactic. It may also act as a palliative/distraction for conscientious objector types to an outside world in the grip of New Feudalist madness.

― suzy, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Patrick: my initial (and now-quelled) suspicion of Suzy's statements was rooted in my paranoia of the UK media's reduction of everything to such a crude and simplistic level. Yes, I know, I know ...

Suzy: I agree entirely. I've always objected very strongly to neo- feudalist attempts to "own" the internet, to control a cultural space that should be there for all. I couldn't agree more with your feelings on capitalist dynastic succession and underwriting, and I've always tried to find another way. Quite naturally my greatest anger towards them is when they try to colonise what was born democratic.

I initially suspected Paul was a joke. I fear not, however, though rest assured that I am unconnected if he is. I couldn't imagine (read: wouldn't want to depress myself by imagining) such attitudes, but the internet is bound to surprise us. I'd be far more frustrated by it if it didn't; rather the Pauls of this world than neo-feudal colonisation.

― Robin Carmody, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Gareth: threads get deleted when the e-mail address used to start the thread doesn't work. It means that replies get fed back to the e- mails of the person posting them, which is a hassle. And it also clogs up Greenspun, who are kind enough to provide this service free. So that's why.

And yes, the forum is 'censored'. It's a private message board. I try to be open about the reasons. Stuff that gets deleted includes: personal abuse not linked to any music-related points, repeat posts when I catch them, posting under other people's e-mail address, racial or homophobic abuse, threats, etc. etc. So for instance you won't see Paul's mutterings about "crushing [Robin's] career" here for much longer.

― ILM Moderator (Tom), Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think the most interesting thing about class/music in britain is that the most desirable musician "properties" are those who are middle-class, but who can most successfully pass themselves off as working class. Apropos of what, I don't know....

yadda yadda.....

x0x0

― norman fay, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

READ THIS

As you may notice, there have been some posts deleted from the end of this thread. 'paul' or whatever you answer to, stop being a cockfarmer on our nice message board. Everyone else, please try not to respond to stuff like this.

(There were a few posts deleted which sort of made points relevant to the whole thread, in an effort to relate the cockfarming back to the topic at hand. I'm sorry to remove those contributions, but thought it was best since so many surrounding posts were removed.)

― Josh (ILM Moderator), Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

censorship from a thread that talks about being anti-censorship. Did you know that Naomi Klien is married to Avi Lewis, twat much music dj and is teh daughter of ralph klien, whose cuts to welfare and pensions provided naomi with her education to write about 'those big nasty corporations...'

I wonder how long this is going to be on the thread!

― paul, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

and for the record, i complimented suzy......................

*stands up on soap box*

the story will not be rewritten........................

― paul, Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This is not a free-speech-unlimited forum. If that disappoints you, you're free to start a forum of your own and post whatever you like. Posts here are moderated in order to lessen the negative impact on the forum due to people who lack the basic communication and social skills necessary to exchange opinions civilly.

― Josh (ILM Moderator), Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

me no understand big word that typing man do????? me wish had public school education. me no happy. : - (

― paul, Wednesday, 16 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

I always enjoy agreeing with Stevie T, especially when it means he'll go and buy me another pint. But I don't think I find class a very interesting topic in pop music. (But I do take the point of what the estimable Tracer Hand said, way upthread, about what Barthes used to call 'exnomination'.) Come to think of it, I don't find race a very interesting topic in pop music either. While I kind of agree with Stevie about 'creative tensions within a culture' blah blah, those things are not what the pop music of my dreams would be about. The pop music of my dreams would be about things like love, nostalgia, places, travel, marriage, and clambakes.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 10 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The pop music of my dreams: travel and places for sure, but not the other four things Reynard suggests. Its tone would be overridingly cynical but tentatively optimistic. And it would be collaborative.

― Robin Carmody, Sunday, 10 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

six years pass...

Momus, what exactly do you mean by 'race' here?

-- Richard Tunnicliffe, Tuesday, 8 May 2001 00:00 (6 years ago)

― am0n, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 18:50 (sixteen years ago) link

genuinely good thread

― blueski, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 18:58 (sixteen years ago) link

READ THIS

-- Josh (ILM Moderator), Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

^^^this dude was jokes

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 19:00 (sixteen years ago) link

The initial post in this thread is ridiculously stupid. Artists explore issues relating to their personal lives and world; race and class happen to be big parts of that.

― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 20:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Would art be better if humans didn't make it?

― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 20:17 (sixteen years ago) link

The point was merely that race and class are over-used as themes or issues in UK music. Japan was not a particularly good comparison but still.

― blueski, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 20:51 (sixteen years ago) link

this is a great thread but i think the initial q was pretty dumb

― deej, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 21:28 (sixteen years ago) link

quel surprise

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 21:30 (sixteen years ago) link

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