"the bug" -- what else?

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and what about sean paul? and elephant man? not to mention supa kat, lady saw!

sterling are you saying these people are white or that people who like the bug shld check them?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 19 April 2004 13:39 (nineteen years ago) link

dave, I fold
I was gonna make some point about Yelloman but made the mistake of digging out Snow's - Informer 7" instead, thinking it can't have been that bad.

― nick.K (nick.K), Monday, 19 April 2004 13:45 (nineteen years ago) link

yellowman was albino - he does not count!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 19 April 2004 13:50 (nineteen years ago) link

golly how am i supposed to come back. should i call yall a wack daft tosspot wally or something? tho it's true i am having trouble finding a wig quite like yours dave

recommending salt shaker to go with the bug seems a bit bizzaro disingenuous, but if youre drawing another better line wrt dancehall dislocations then i guess it's a thought yeah. i'm not sure i understand tho. but for good-bug-not-bug i'd heartily champ the new rat trap riddim, if that helps any. nor am i comfy with bug "classic example of all things fassy *wrongly* projects onto rupture - "hey i'm making dancehall all edgy" " (ps er do u really think that's all i meant when i criticized rupture?!), i think i'd leave it at him just having really bad bedroom headbanger gothmosh taste, he still sucks obv but that's not my point. tho perhaps that's just a backhanded way of saying i dont think k-mart is smart enough to be smug or whatever...

also again what's this about ward 21 being experimental?! yeah they tart up their riddims a bit but then so does elephant man, so do lots of mcs, and to much better effect i'd venture to argue. so are they experimental cos only half of their stuff comes off while everyone else's efforts are instant hotness (which then means it's Dancehall in General thats great and fab etc)

― prima fassy (mwah), Monday, 19 April 2004 23:33 (nineteen years ago) link

When you guys go out to romantic dinners and then get into arguments about the check who pays in the end?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 19 April 2004 23:39 (nineteen years ago) link

us.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 19 April 2004 23:41 (nineteen years ago) link

zing! no we usually cop out weakly and claim we were merely commenting on marketing aspects. works every time

― prima fassy (mwah), Monday, 19 April 2004 23:45 (nineteen years ago) link

what part of the phrase "acceptably 'experimental'* face of straight dancehall" was giving you difficulty up there? i'll be happy to help.

* with scare quotes no less

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:03 (nineteen years ago) link

you don't send that guy who started that "electronic hip-hop" thread straight into the waiting arms of compton's most wanted, either!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:06 (nineteen years ago) link

I think Strongo is prob in the right on this particular lil' dispute (and it is lil').

I love U Know How We Roll but apart from Sizzla's Rise To The Occasion it's the only actually-from-03 dancehall album I've been able to get a hold of so I'm not sure how it rates against efforts by Ele, Vybz, etc. I do get the sense though that they're rarely *the best* on any given riddim. I think they're tops on whichever riddim "Style" is on (Goldmine I think? There's a palpable inevitability to the excitement of their rapping on this that really grabs me but is I think quite unusual for them) and "Petrol" is one of those inspired one-offs (see Prima's formulation) where I don't actually want to hear any other takes on the riddim. But as groups go I tend to enjoy TOK's efforts more, both for individual rap/singing elements and for the way the tunes fit together. Maybe Ward 21 need to add a singjay (which would be instant death for their cred i suspect!).

The Bug sounds a lot like dancehall circa '01 to me but with distorted fxs where the string samples should be.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:08 (nineteen years ago) link

my point was that ward 21 - at least in america, i have no idea about anywhere else - has achieved this position in the last couple years where they'll show up (for a minute) in the aquarius records or other music write-ups as an adjunct to the k. martin/rupture/children-of-on-u diaspora. it's got nothing to do with whether or not they're actually more "experimental", just that soemthing about them (packaging, presentation, delivery, who champions them [like, you know, k. martin in the wire year end issue]) has landed them in this position. in a way that wayne marshall or vybz could never be. (that'd be the hollertronix angle ha ha ha.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Strongo OTM although you can basically make the same claim about Elephant Man too.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:16 (nineteen years ago) link

The difference being that Elephant Man has a higher popular profile via Lil Jon and Missy and etc.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:17 (nineteen years ago) link

ok fine but i've never seen that acceptable scarequote perception of ward 21 mentioned before anywhere personally. yours (or your quoting it sorry sorry) was the first time, and stelfox seemed to be quite agreeing with you on it no? did i misread that too? bah if u dont actually think these things then why bother in the first place

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:18 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah elephant man has basically crossed over now, i think. the biggest sign of this is that we've moved him from the "reggae" to the "hip-hop" section of the store, ho ho.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Bounty Killer must be so mad!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:21 (nineteen years ago) link

Having said all that though someone following that Kevin Martin-style set-up and liking Ward 21 and then ignoring everything else is mentalist in a way that doing so with Elephant Man wouldn't be, or wouldn't be to the same extent.

For some reason I feel the need to big up the MUDSLIDE riddim in this thread. I think people getting into dancehall via electronic music would love it (plus it's one of my favourites).

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:22 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah ward 21 are always the ones where u'd think "hm bit crazy" and then not buy it. the only time when this 'weirdness', which yeah is basically the sound of things not coming off usually i reckon, has worked for me is on marmalade riddim recently, their one is called 'why'. it's still queasy but kinda painful too so it works. the only other excellent ward 21 i can think of off the top of my head is 'nah climb' with vybz on americk, wicked. the other one they do by themselves on americk has a weird intro about pineapples i think?!

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:26 (nineteen years ago) link

(any ward 21 vs ele - 'cant stop we now' nails it i think)

yeeah mudslide totally, so so fun

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:28 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah "Nah Climb" is great but they have to share credit with Vybz for that.

Prima - I can attest that Ward 21 *do* have inexplicable experi-mentalist cred; even no-nothing Aussie articles on dancehall (not including my own) seem to reference them as being the intelligent option!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Re: Mudslide - my fave is probably Assassin's "Want To Be Free", which possibly beats out even "Love & Affection" in terms of amount of replays in my house.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:31 (nineteen years ago) link

hm, i suppose i have been avoiding england's finest dancehall writers a bit lately

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:33 (nineteen years ago) link

:( i missed the assassin at the time! i like tanya stephens esp, then vybz and on top of all of them the shotgun mix of bounty killer's! that really is the curio to end them all, if u can imagine them somehow fitting "chik chick BOOOM" sounds into the riddim endlessly... yeah. too much too young.

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:41 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.africanbeat.de/catalog/mp3_1/mudbountykiller.mp3

oh shit i found it!!

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:44 (nineteen years ago) link

The Assassin one has children singing the chorus! I really like the lyrics although not really because they're socially conscious, they just flow really well:

All we really want is to be free
Opportunity, social mobility
We might not dress so formal
Nor speak so properly
But by the hook or by the crook
We've got to beat this poverty!

Will check out that Bounty Killa one when I get a chance.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 00:53 (nineteen years ago) link

fassy, you could write well on this stuff and i'd actually like to see it if you weren't such a repellent human being. like it or not personality comes across on the printed page and until you get over whatever petty jealousies you feel toward me and certain other people here, internet "notoriety" is all you'll have. anyway, you are not good enough to make me look bad, mate, trust me, so just GIVE IT UP (i'm not gonna say don't try it, as much as i might want to). sarcastic cracks cracks about england's finest dancehall writers don't really bother me. i know people enjoy and get something out of my work and that's all that matters to me. i enjoy it, too, and you're not going to get in the way of either. i do my best and try to have some fun with it; if you have a problem with that, all i can say is fuck you. anyway, re ward 21/salt shaker etc, i wasn't saying that they are **like** the bug, you moron, rather that they are *GOOD** and if you like the (horribly self-consciously) "weird" sonix etc of k-mart, then you should go for something a bit more real, leave the indstrial-mosh crapola behind and listen to them instead.
re: if youre drawing another better line wrt dancehall dislocations then i guess it's a thought yeah - you knew fucking well that was what i was doing and so would anyone else reading it. it was blatantly apparent, so don't make it sound like your idea!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 10:43 (nineteen years ago) link

anyway, if you want to argue with me i'll be on the klezmer thread - it's more interesting to me than this continual nonsense.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:04 (nineteen years ago) link

...whuh! i wasnt even making cracks cracks, jeez. i liked the salt shaker idea, yes er it's not mine, i thought it was interesting, "go for something a bit more real" illustrated the conflictedness of (useful?/effective?/or acceptable?), mashup appropriation and yeah what the real in something bit more real might be. please don't get paranoid dave

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:24 (nineteen years ago) link

i mean if u always intended it good, fair dos, but the recommendation works fine er, sonically (as you say tougher, electronic, bit stiffer than a regular jamaican riddim) by itself as well as socially

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:32 (nineteen years ago) link

bottom line: i am not going to recommend anything here that's **like** the bug, because i think the bug is rubbish. i will offer better alternatives. i do think ward 21 and tok are a little more edgy production-wise than a lot of other dancehall artists because of how they screw with the rhythms etc but disgree with calling them experimental. considering as how the genre is always trying new things, it all falls into that nonsensical pigeonhole for me. and if you want top call a stop to this fassy, i'd be very happy. it'#s fucking annoying and doesn't do anything for anyone.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:36 (nineteen years ago) link

i wouldnt say this was a useless thread, far from it

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:42 (nineteen years ago) link

the fact that i have hated everything kevin martin hase ever been involved with doesn't help the bug. i find he rountinely strips everything *good* out of every style he approaches, resulting in a similar dumb racket that in no way reinvents the genres in question. the result is always either totally irrelevant to me or just plain unpleasant.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:46 (nineteen years ago) link

edgy/experimental aside you seem to give ward 21 more credit than others here, ie find their production more effective i assume, wanna do a list or something? i dont know if this is a taste thing or if i havent heard what you have

i dont deny that about the bug, but then he isn't putting kelis accapellas over it either is he

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 11:50 (nineteen years ago) link

ha - i'm shite at remembering track names, always have been, pretty much have to have the record right in front of me when i write a review. happy to provide a list when i get home and can dig round. the quick answer is that i think the best thing is to listen to the ward 21 albums, to be honest, though. u know how we roll is their best. it's not even necessarily what they do with their rhythms, although the fact that they pay attention to what they do and are often not content to work over *exactly* the same rhythm as everyone else does seem to show a bit of willingness not to experiment per se, but to do something a little different to the rest. i don't think they're any more avant than any other good dancehall is, but they are certainly pretty quality conscious and bring the best out of the people they work with. they actually make good albums, which is a rarity in dancehall there's a great tension between the vocals of the crew. the hyperspeed maniacal chatter and kunley's molasses-thick, skunked-out baritone. because there's four of them often chatting different speeds over a rhythm, panning across the speakerfield you get a real sense of disorientation and a "wall of sound" feel from their stuff. these refined yet still challenging sonics are naturally more interesting to me than rasp, rasp, bosh, bosh headbang cod-euro-ragga. you also get to love ward 21 by listening to big chunks of them and them alone, that's why their albums work.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 12:12 (nineteen years ago) link

havind said that, i like tok even more. the completely anarchic pop angle they have works better for me than anything else right now. i can't wait for their album.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 12:15 (nineteen years ago) link

*nah we no beg friend nah we no beg friend*

― sorry, couldn't resist, Tuesday, 20 April 2004 12:22 (nineteen years ago) link

re the kelis acapella thing, don't you think that's a bit more relevant than k-mart? at least it's music in conversation and whether you like it or not there's a bit of a conversation going on. with the bug, it's just totally redundant posturing and if you find rupture smug, i don't know what to make of martin's work: foolhardy, deluded, even arrogant, maybe?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 12:37 (nineteen years ago) link

well exactly, and it's rupture's side of that conversation i have qualms about. it is relevant so it does matter. it wasnt v useful of me to bring k-mart into it on reflection, there are similarities but i find the bug harmless really. he's like mike from spaced

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:00 (nineteen years ago) link

he's like mike from spaced

haha! i don't agree, but that's a great summation him all the same.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:05 (nineteen years ago) link

and answering the question about realness etc, there is as you know a hella big crossover between hip-hop/r&b/dancehall in london, the major us cities and jamaica, too. i don't really see salt shaker as a mash-up at all when you bear in mind rhythms like snake, bollywood etc, plus the crossover w/ ele tok etc working w lil jon and so forth. it's real in the sense that it works in both scenes it draws from whereas the just bug wouldn't. imagine putting him on a proper bashment bill w/ renaissance or something, live. he'd get chsed off the stage, i should think. it bears no relevance to dancehall.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:34 (nineteen years ago) link

i know that's not what he's necessarily trying to do and some people will say what does that matter (and i guess it doesn't in some ways), but it's a fact nonetheless.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:36 (nineteen years ago) link

yip i agree. doesnt affect yr point at all but out of curiousity the salt shaker 7s are bootlegs tho arent they? i only picked up the capleton but it's his same chat as on rain drops riddim, and on the same label. yellow and red volcanoes, prettiest 7s of 04

― prima fassy (mwah), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:46 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah they're kinda nice - i only got the tanya stephens one which is a vocal i've not heard, but i sort of presumed so. was really only a matter of time.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:53 (nineteen years ago) link

The Bug might not work on a Bashment line-up any more than Prefuse 73 would go down too well in front of a Fiddy crowd, but to deny that he has any relationship to dancehall is pushing it a bit, wouldn't you say?

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:56 (nineteen years ago) link

not really... depends where your lines are drawn and mine are a bit before that. i'm no purist, but i don't think he has.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 15:02 (nineteen years ago) link

Dave OTM re TOK and "anarchic pop" - great distillation there. BTW Dave I finally found Tanya's "Soft Inside" - great track! Up there with or even slightly better than the Chico version on that riddim (my favourite until now).

Maybe I'm just dense but you guys *are* talking about "saltshaker" as in the Ying Yang Twinz, right? Or something else?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 01:37 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah it's a kind of boot. i'd not heard the tanya voicing of it (the only one i own) over any other rhythm, but had a feeling it might be, then mr fassy kindly clarified. sounds good all the same.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 08:23 (nineteen years ago) link

o there u go, voom voom's german isn't it?

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 10:14 (nineteen years ago) link

you wrong, fassy, but will probably come close to pissing yrself laughing when i tell you they're swedish!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 10:25 (nineteen years ago) link

voom voom is way better than anything i've heard out of germany... i'll just see if i can dig up a website for them or something

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 10:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Skipping 45 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

i choose to take it as an endorsement of executing anti-vaxxers, a highly sympathetic position, so i can enjoy the rest of the record

― adam, Tuesday, 14 September 2021 18:57 (two years ago) link

yeah that wouldn't be a too bad dystopia tbf!

― calzino, Tuesday, 14 September 2021 19:03 (two years ago) link

I've probably wasted too much thought about this, but I don't see how anti-lockdown gels with anti-vaccine unless his idea is that the vaccination is an additional means to control the population, with like a microchip or something.

Honestly, it doesn't bug (ho ho) me that much as it's clearly an anti-authoritarian stance based on a near future scenario. If lockdowns are still going on three years from now, I'll be with Robinson. The world has caught up to the Martin/Broadrick's vision. 90s Techno Animal sounds as fresh as ever.

― beard papa, Tuesday, 14 September 2021 23:17 (two years ago) link

i didn't get that he was saying that at all but hey, i probably need my ears syringed. any anti-syringers can eff off.

― stirmonster, Tuesday, 14 September 2021 23:51 (two years ago) link

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