frank kogan needs to know the diff between a pub and a bar

I was serious about my cider on draught thing. I don't think he can go far wrong with that criterion. Soon he will learn the difference at first sight. Go on, give me counterexamples to the cider rule that don't come from the disputed chain pub/bar area.

cider on draught is an interesting criterion bcz it clearly CAN'T be judged prior to arrival (ie it as an element of "content" rather than "packaging") => i deem it epiphenomenal but only by hunchwork

("content" vs "packaging" is hardly a cast-iron opposition of course, since the ppl attracted by the packaging of an establishment swiftly go on to make up its content)

In a bar, I can ask for a white Russian or some vodka/cranberry combo and get what I've asked for. In a pub, they will have to ask me how to make one or I will take one look around and see that there is no way it's gonna happen so choose something else (the amount of times I have had to tell some pub-ning how to build the perfect Bloody Mary...arrgh).

Also pub staff ask you if you want ice in your drink if it involves shorts and barstaff don't, it's part of the service.

AB1, S&L, P&P are all PUBS albeit 'feminised' pubs. I hate them ALL.

* Unless it's a whisky or brandy.

to me, pubs = where i buy pints (at least early in the evening - once drunk this can go out the window), bars = where i buy bottles of wine or cocktails. admittedly there are exceptions (although the only one springing to mind is the embassy bar, where i tend to buy pints but wd def say it is a bar).

Can anyone tell me why bar staff insist on putting a slice of lemon into every short I order with a coke or lemonade mixer? This is prevalent in both pubs and bars.

Still, generally, studenty bars excluded, bars have fewer pumps. They will *never* have more than four beers on tap, whereas a pub that didn't have at least six would be a poor pub indeed.

Like you say, though, if I see a lot of draught pumps I do think I'm in a pub. And generally speaking, Tavern Snacks are not available in bars.

As to the American = higher standards generally expected of bar staff, I disagree in my case as I have lived here for more than a decade. I remember when all I could drink from a pub was vodka and Britvic orange and going to buy cranberry juice for £4.50 in Fortnum's to give everyone in my flat sea breezes. Things have gotten much better here but there's no real tipping culture to bribe bartenders into making you a stiffer drink.

pubs and bars are both cool when they are doing what they are supposed to do. anything in the middle is ugh

like, early in the night, you want PUB. it should be local, it should have old people in, you should ddrink beer, the carpet should be stained and dirty. there should be geezers. there should be plenty seating room to spread out in. there should be no music.

assuming there is goign to be no club the bar comes later, the bar has got to be the complete opposite. there should be music, it should be dark and neon, hopefully there should be some sort of robot, electroclash airheads with asymetric fringes should be snorting coke in the toilets, juan maclean records should be playing, there must be beautiful people.

no inbetweens ok

they shouldnt be played, not in a bar, not anywhere

first pub
second bar
third club
end of night russian bar

Martin is also kind of right, though too didactic, about the building. As I said earlier, a pub cannot be tucked away upstairs or in the basement. It must dominate the ground floor of the building (inc. frontage). Though of course, many bars can also do this, and still not be pubs.

Irish pubs can be weird - the real ones in crappy little towns. They often don't fulfill the normal look of a pub from the outside, especially if they are in a modern building. That one where he gets beaten up in 'I Went Down', for example.

This points to the difference between U.S. usage and British. As brg30 says, it's a pub if it has "pub" in the title, otherwise not. The title is to connote "Britain," which is considered high-class but in a stolid way, so pubs are upscale in that they're clean and serve big burgers and designer beers, but they're glamourless. U.S. bars are carpetless to accommodate the spillage of blood and barf.

So, what's better, "pub rock" or "bar band"?

Roogalator vs. Blueshammer: FITE

A 'vibe' eh? Interesting. All Bar One is definitely ruled out then.

That is all.

I expect pubs to sell cider, real ale and stout. I expect bars to sell brightly coloured synthetic alcopops.

Much of this will change too when the licencing laws change. Student bars are bars by the above definition because that is how the define themselves (though they would have more physically in common some times with pubs).