DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

I don't think the notion that the greens are perceived as hippie tree-huggers is particularly accurate, actually. I think they are condescended-to and largely ignored by mass media, but equally they are pretty dreadful at communicating their message. This is possibly partly down to having no money - even the BNP and something I've never heard of called the Christian Party received more in donations at the last election, so having even the very modest success they've had is quite an achievement.

The British public are, I believe, largely sympathetic to environmental issues in a kind of airy theoretical way. There's a reason Cameron draped himself in green policies before the last election. The problem arises when you ask people to make concrete changes to their way of life. But what I'm getting at is that I really don't think branding is the issue.

tbh when the Green Party adopted a formal leader in this country it felt like a bullshit concession to ad agency politics to me

but it also arguably resulted in raising caroline lucas's profile to a level where she was able to get elected to parliament, and i think that as such she's doing an amazing job. and then once she got elected, she gave up the leadership and now a second person might get the same boost in an election. a smart move campaignwise but also somewhat of a rejection of the leadership concept?

ha i wasn't totally aware of that Nick. that's quite savvy, maybe?

there's a whole area here about playing the game, entryism, using the tools at your disposal, the ends justifying the means, etc

i guess to be fully honest i shd confess that i have very little (okay, no) faith in the capacity of the parliamentary system to make the changes i think the world needs, and that i think it is better to be honest in political campaigning than to use the kind of semi-honesty involved in PR, marketing etc even for "noble" ends, and that, like Matt, i strongly doubt that a party that was honest about the kind of socioeconomic changes that the world needs will be able to win anything like an influential base within a coalition government, never mind a workable majority

and also that parties should be based on the political convictions of their members and do their utmost to win other people to their cause, not focus group themselves into enough votes to be in gov at any cost

Been writing this between calls all morning so sorry if it reads a bit wonky, but...

Branding is a loaded term I guess. I think Matt's a bit closer to what I'm getting at. Even though I advocate ballot-spoiling over not voting at all, ideally I'd prefer to believe in and vote for something if that something seemed like a viable option. Looking at the Green Party's policies, they're the closest that fall in line with my own beliefs. I'm sure a lot of other people I know - including those who don't vote, either through apathy, disillusionment or disinterest - could be tempted to vote Green if they checked out their policies. But I know why they don't, and it's largely down to perception. Either they see the Greens as a one-issue party (which they're not), or that they exude a kind of specialist agenda associated with free-spiritism/activism/airiness that doesn't gel with everyone's outlook.

The Green Party kind of remind me of my local gig venue. It's run by a really nice old chap, an ex-Pink Floyd roadie, who cares about his community and the local music scene more than anything else in the world and yet can't seem to figure out why fewer and fewer people are coming to his club, but the answer's glaringly obvious - it's a hippie dive. Well over ten years ago he decked it out in brightly-painted motifs, pictures of dancing figures, ravey day-glo tribal patterns etc. It was a bit old fashioned even then, even if it did fit in with the character of the place and some of the people who went there (Dreadzone and Zion Train still make regular appearances). But shit, if it looked old-fashioned then, it's positively anachronistic now. The town is booming with young people, many of whom are interested in live music and forming bands and yet the club's having serious trouble bringing in these new audiences. The owner puts it down to the smoking ban, the popularity of the X-Factor, the recession, people being more interested in pubs and clubs than live music, people not being interested in their scene any more, a lack of quality bands etc - all of which I'm sure are contributing factors to a lack of door sales; but ask anyone under 25 why they don't visit the place and they'll tell you it's because it's a hole. They're embarrassed to go there. The fluorescent paint is peeling off the walls, the floor's covered in gum, and it simply doesn't factor into the mindset and aesthetic of someone born after 1990. The problem is no one's got the heart to tell the owner this, because it's his club and he's put his heart and soul into it (and besides, he hasn't got the money to redecorate anyway so pointing out this elephant in the room would be pointless).

Anyway, forgive the extended analogy, but since the guy used to be a Green rep in our area, I've always seen them as having similar image problems - heart's in the right place, but more has to be done, somehow, to get people from outside the immediate circle to support them. It's not about selling out their values, but it is about trying to appeal to more people by saying 'hey, you don't like the way things are; you're against the major parties and their policies and fibs; these are our policies - you agree with a lot of them, so why not vote for them?. We're not just about fracking and recycling and wearing camo; and we represent a SERIOUS alternative to the status quo, not a fringe party or a protest vote or a waste of time'.

problem with your analogy is that the green party got their highest ever share of the vote at the last election and got an mp for the first time. they're on the up afaict

That's really good to hear, I'm pleased and I hope it continues. I still think more people would be up for getting on board with the Greens if they heard about their policies and saw them in a slightly different light. You could blame apathy on behalf of voters, but not everyone thinks to take it on themselves to check out every party's policies before they decide whether or not to vote. I still think a lot of people are put off voting Green for personal or aesthetic rather than rational reasons.

Think the Greens probably lose out more to the age-old "they'll never win, it's a wasted vote" problem then they do to being viewed as hippie skanks.

yeah that too, but it hasn't hurt UKIP.

Yeah but UKIP voters are predominantly fuckwits not renowned for their pragmatism. Also they've been very good at presenting themselves as a party with momentum in their favour.

UKIP don't have an MP tbf

which i think is quite telling about how much their potential core support really cares

I still think a lot of people are put off voting Green for personal or aesthetic rather than rational reasons.

i think you might be right but my response tends to be "fuck all y'all then" which i admit probably isn't helpful

There's also the question of the extent to which the Greens will benefit from the collapse of the LibDem protest vote.

if that means that all their newsletters have a "Labour/Conservatives Can't Win Here" image at the top then please god no

meant to post about that Lib Dem meme before, says it all really, party of principle and conviction eh?

For all their momentum etc, UKIP have never come close to getting a seat in a general election. They do well in the European elections because British people hate Europe.

xposts to NV hehe, it's righteous but no it's not helpful. especially considering the number of people i talk to online and IRL who hold beliefs and opinions and have standards about their way of life but do not vote because they're scared off by the very idea of politics. when voting time comes, i'm always surprised at how many people say 'well i'm not voting because i don't feel i know enough about politics to vote', and i have to say to them that while they stay at home, there are dozens of right-wing arseholes voting for the BNP and UKIP.

I truly believe that the realm of politics needs to be made accessible to everyone in order for elections to work and for democracy to represent an overall picture of the country rather than the vested interests of an active elite of richer, older voters. It's why, despite certain flaws, I'm very pleased Russel Brand's been putting his oar in because at least he's drawing attention to the subject and bringing them to a wider audience.

I dunno, the LibDems have always been this weird collection of wet Tories, classical Liberals and social democrats who were queasy about Labour's authoritarian instincts, and that did bear out in the opportunism of their campaigning (plus the constant tension between economic and social liberalism) but we shouldn't be in any doubt by now which side has won.

Every party has these faultlines to some extent but it's more pronounced in the LibDems than pretty much any other party, although Labour come close.

The alienated right are consistently better at committing to a minority party, whether it's the BNP or UKIP, and therefore getting attention than the alienated left, whose disillusionment tends to translate into not voting at all and therefore, under the current system, rendering themselves invisible. Occupy was a great attempt to have an impact outside the electoral system though. It stands to reason that a party of the far left or right probably won't get any MPs except in unusual constituencies but they can change the political conversation and nudge the mainstream parties.

it is about trying to appeal to more people by saying 'hey, you don't like the way things are; you're against the major parties and their policies and fibs; these are our policies - you agree with a lot of them, so why not vote for them?. We're not just about fracking and recycling and wearing camo; and we represent a SERIOUS alternative to the status quo, not a fringe party or a protest vote or a waste of time'.

^^^^ 100%. The Green party's lack of engagement with the political process is enraging, given their mostly agreeable policies. I'm not asking for Saatchi & Saatchi, but an acknowledgement that they're a political party and not a pressure group would be helpful. It was the professional campaigning and the move away from the dreadlocks-and-drum-circles image that won the seat at the last electon. (At least that's my understanding - is that right, Brighton posters?)

The alienated right, whether American or British, have no problem getting attention because of their contrariness/racism/authoritarian love for staying on-message with a few simple ideas.

I would suggest that the right's willingness to turn disallusion into votes, and the left's reluctance to do the same, is a negative rather than a positive. It may or may not be tru that the current system cannot bring meaningful change (I believe it can, given it has in the past) but until a left-leaning party gives it a proper go in the 21c we'll never find out.

The alienated right have no problem voting because every major party in this country espouses views they're mostly comfortable with

It may or may not be tru that the current system cannot bring meaningful change (I believe it can, given it has in the past)

i think the Labour government of 1945 has to be viewed as an historical anomaly brought about by a set of circumstances which will never cohere again. that's before i even think about whether said government did anything to arrest or ameliorate the advancement of capitalism and its ongoing destruction of human potential

i know i get apocalyptic when it's better to be pragmatic but i think a lot of "pragmatists" shd take a long hard think about how little improvement in the way our society works has been bought at the expense of how much continued diversion of the world's natural and human resources into the hands of a very privileged micro-minority, and look at the direction the gap continues to move in, and wonder whether they aren't being just a tiny bit played

I like the idea of ballot spoiling rather than not turning up at the polling station at all, but I think that any movement that promotes it should not just say 'spoil your paper' so that people simply write obscenities or scribble over the paper randomly. Rather, the movement should encourage people to write the message NONE OF THE ABOVE, neatly and simply. That way, the participants are making clear that they do want to participate in the political process, it is simply that they do not believe that any of the candidates will act in their interests.

If the movement became successful, just in one constituency...hell, even one ward in a local election, and the number of NONE OF THE ABOVE papers exceeded the number of votes for the most successful candidate then that would make people sit up and take notice. And I don't think the 'winning' candidate could be said to have a mandate.

^^^ this, basically

They'd only sit up and take notice if it looked likely that those who spoiled their papers could be organised into voting consistently. If it just looked like inchoate dissatisfaction then widespread spoiling would offer no meaningful threat, or even nudge.

it's not so much a threat i think as at least not handing the stick to the cunt that's beating you

I guess ultimately I don't believe that either (a) the major parties in the UK are functionally identical or (b) a mass campaign of spoiling would lead to fundamental system change.

You know, I was all ready to go with the Greens in the next election. Then I read this. And that was the end of that.

(I also don't get too het up about the sanctity of my vote legitimising people I don't believe in wholeheartedly, if one is slightly better than the other then that's worth my little x in the little box, I reckon.)

Unfortunately nobody sits and logs the reasons the ballot is spoiled. There's no practical difference between a paper with "none of the above" and one where you have voted for two candidates, afaik.

Unfortunately nobody sits and logs the reasons the ballot is spoiled. There's no practical difference between a paper with "none of the above" and one where you have voted for two candidates, afaik.

Nobody does *yet*, ShariVari. If large numbers of people could be mobilized into spoiling their papers blatantly *in the same way* they may well change their minds.

Regarding the Greens, anti immigration bandwagon jumping aside, just as the LibDem party has been stymied by the fact that it is (a) a grab bag for people who don't like the Tories and Labour, and (b) the result of a coalition between old Liberals and refugees from the Labour Party and thus pretty split in its ideology (such as it has), I think the Greens are scuppered by not being scientific enough. If you are going to be a party that promotes sustainability and the prevention of ecological destruction then you *have* to be 100% scientific in your thinking to have any credibility at all. Otherwise, when you oppose Arctic drilling, or fracking, and give your reasoning for doing so, the energ execs can turn around and say "why should we trust anything you say when you have people in your ranks who believe in homeopathy and crystal power" and your credibility as a political force is pretty much done for.

I'd even say this is true when it comes to Green objections to nuclear. Remind them only ~100 people died as a direct result of Chernobyl, or that Three Mile Island killed no-one and emitted radiation equivalent to giving everyone in NYC one chest X-ray. They really won't like it.

large swathes of spoiled ballots/no votes would at some point be unprecedented and noteworthy, this cd potentially be about gauging the level of anger and disaffection as opposed to brute apathy

You know, I was all ready to go with the Greens in the next election. Then I read this. And that was the end of that.

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Friday, November 8, 2013 1:26 PM (5 minutes ago)

you were swayed by a few party members who disagree with the party policy??

If there were better political parties, better candidates, better ideas, people would be moved to go out and vote - look at the USA elections earlier this week.

But no, here in Britain it's just the same old faces, the same school debating society "adversarial" approach to everything that might have worked in the court of King Wolfnut 1200 years ago but not now, the Aldi/Lidl/Tesco "choices" of political parties, none of whom gives a damn about anybody except the 10% of floating voters, all of whom talk the same uninformed crap about immigration and benefits. And nobody - i.e. the people who need to be "won over" to politics - gives enough of a toss even to consider spoiling the ballot paper.

I read the riposte but it doesn't convince me - these people are still members, they have input and presumably influence on how policies are shaped - that the party would offer anything different if in power.

as a fellow Jeremiah i broadly agree with you Marcello but it's a bleak way to live no? and i worry myself that its functionally equivalent to apathy in many ways. but on the other hand we're still talking about the Westminster Mausoleum and politics can and does take place outside of there in lots of useful ways

I wholeheartedly agree. But I think that unfortunately a lot of people stick by political parties the way they support football teams or only read specific newspapers – next time the majority of voters would, I suspect, be the sort who say to themselves: “Well, I’d better vote Conservative because I’ve ALWAYS voted Conservative and I always WILL vote Conservative…” The problem is how to break that circle and show people what the alternatives are without putting them off.

these people are still members, they have input and presumably influence on how policies are shaped

So wait, three Green members disagree with the leadership and say something you don't like, dozens respond to back the leadership and you still give up on the party because of the three? No wonder you can't find anyone to vote for.

The alienated right have no problem voting because every major party in this country espouses views they're mostly comfortable with

i.e. they're not very alienated

If these three have no influence, why was their letter prominently published in the Guardian?

cos it's a good story?

Well, I didn't like to say...

Ultimately I think that spoiling a ballot paper only plays into the hands of the people with a vested interest in keeping things the same. Even a critical mass of spoilt ballot papers would delegitimise all main parties more or less equally, and therefore under our electoral system not at all.

The problem we have is that membership of political parties is *tiny* and it's this tiny minority of people that effectively get to choose one of two people who might be Prime Minister. Labour is slightly better with the union vote but it's still a long way from genuine mass engagement. Also there are a hell of a lot of complacent people within the Labour Party who still exist under the delusion that another Tony Blair is what the country needs and we can rewind to 2004 when everything was great, and don't have any interest in changing their party.

A significant groundswell of left-leaning people, in the right places, who could say "we will vote for you if you pledge to do this" would change things far more than spoiling a ballot paper. Until then, we'll get the same policies aimed at appeasing the same tiny minority of people in swing seats who ultimately decide elections.

Labour has pretty much set itself up to prevent a groundswell of left-leaning people gaining influence, tbf

but if you're talking about extra-party pressure groups then it may be a viable strategy, yeah. there's a lot of entrenchment tho. and even threads give me the impression that plenty of people think things are broadly ok and just need a bit of tweaking into a kindlier direction

"threads like this" i mean

i dunno, the fundamental division between whether you think market capitalism is a tractable workhorse or the express train to end times i guess, or which end of that spectrum you lean closer towards