rondo has so much basketball sense that it's almost detrimental (when he tosses a sick unexpected bullet pass to some stonehands forward) but when given a wide birth he could probably play with anybody from the NBA elite to some random YMCA game.
― He grew in Pussyville. Population: him. (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:07 (ten years ago) link
i mean the guy's main failing (other than shooting j's of course) is assuming that everyone's game is as cerebral as his.
― He grew in Pussyville. Population: him. (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:08 (ten years ago) link
im amazed as anyone that hes this good w/o any J - i really didnt think it was possible in todays game - ultimately youve just got to tip yr hat to the kids and join the fan club
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:09 (ten years ago) link
best defensive point in the game imo
yeah it really made sense when it was revealed yesterday that dude is a to the death math nerd
― suggban stevens (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:09 (ten years ago) link
hahah really? i didn't know that. it makes sense and is totally awesome.
― He grew in Pussyville. Population: him. (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:11 (ten years ago) link
sorta like jason kidd w/ a much better shot selection - def like watching him play
― 6335, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:25 (ten years ago) link
rondo better defensively than cp? i'm not seeing it
― 6335, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 05:37 (ten years ago) link
paul is good for steals and he can stay in front of guys w/his quickness but he has problems guarding bigger players - which there are a lot of - not an elite defender imo
rondo creates nearly as much chaos in the passing lanes and hes a shutdown one on one defender with the ability because of his strength and long arms to be affective against a lot of 2s
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 14:41 (ten years ago) link
obv its a small sample size and who knows who was really guarding who when and the celtics D is good overall but just for lolz check out the last 10 Cs games - they played pretty much all the good point guards in the league - there are some decent games by the opposition but no one lit him up and theres a definite theme of poor shooting
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 14:52 (ten years ago) link
fwiw, i thought paul defended d-will a lot better than rondo did in their recent games against the jazz. williams dominated rondo that game in terms of doing whatever he wanted in 1 on 1 situations, he drew 3 fouls on him in the first 8 min or so that rondo was in the game. williams didn't shoot that well that game, but 4-5 of the shots he missed were makeable shots where he'd already gone by rondo and/or just missed open 18 footers. when he played paul, he was mostly beating him on pick and rolls off high screens. he beat paul a couple times off the dribble, but i thought paul did a much better job of containing him. anyway, i'm using a tiny sample size for my comparison but i'm still not convinced that the poor shooting from the pg's that rondo played isn't more a result of boston's great team D. i should know better than to argue this in the midst of the rajon rondo fan club tho
― 6335, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 17:05 (ten years ago) link
i didnt watch that game but the stats certainly dont point to any sort of deron domination
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 17:25 (ten years ago) link
heres hollinger naming rondo to his 1st all defensive team last season - id be interested in learning more abt fancy new D stats tho im not sure what they are - ive heard talk of defensive per and defensive ws but im having a hard time digging those up
First team: Rajon Rondo, Boston (5.94)A second-teamer last year, Rondo deservedly moves up to the first team this year. He's as quick as any guard in the league, and his long arms make him an absolute pest to opposing point guards. Plus, he has the size to handle bigger guards in switches.
Last season, he had the best per-minute numbers at the position, and this season, he was second, so the numbers back up what the visuals tell me.
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 17:33 (ten years ago) link
i should read more basketball blogs apparently
― 6335, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 17:38 (ten years ago) link
heres the whole article explaining his methodology
It's time, once again, for the year-end awards, and there's one set of awards in particular that's extremely difficult to hand out.
I'm referring to the All-Defense team, because choosing one remains as much art as science. Despite the best efforts of numbers guys, like me, to shine some light on individual defense, there still are many dark corners.
Nonetheless, we have a couple of numbers that can prove useful. One of my favorites is "points saved," with the idea being to compare what a player's team gave up when he was on the court (numbers from 82games.com) to what it was expected to give up based on previous results. The latter figure can be calculated by taking the minutes a player played in a game, multiplying it by the team's points allowed in that game and dividing by 48 (or 53 for an overtime game).
The result is far from perfect, but with just a couple of exceptions, it reflects the general hierarchy of who is good at defense and who isn't. The first caveat is that it's much easier to look good in this rating on a bad defensive team than on a good defensive team, which is why I included an adjustment for a team's defensive efficiency rating on the season. The second is what I call the "bad backup" effect, the idea being that it's easier to have a good "points saved" figure if the man replacing you is a particularly bad defensive player.
The final point is more nefarious, however, because it directly relates to what we're trying to measure. A lot of good defensive players spend their time matched up against opponents' best offensive players. In fact, a lot of coaches intentionally match their ace defender's minutes with the opposing star's.
In other words, it's possible a player's "points saved" might vastly underrate his contribution because he's on the court when the opponent has its best offensive lineup on the floor and off the court when it doesn't. This is particularly true for players like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier who don't have great offensive value.
Needless to say, there's still a large subjective element to all this. I included every player's adjusted points-saved totals (expressed per 40 minutes, through Tuesday's games), but I wasn't a slave to them in choosing an All-Defense team. I've seen every team play start to finish at least 10 times and all but three of them in person (sorry Bucks, Mavs and Clippers -- maybe next season), so I think I have a pretty good feel for who has done what.
With all that said, here's one man's ballot:
Honorable mention: Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Devin Harris, Baron Davis
Parker (2.26) has strong to excellent scores every year, in part because he tends to share the court with Bowen and Tim Duncan. Still, he's an underrated defender with decent size and good quickness.
Paul (0.09) is a terror off the ball, obviously, what with his enormous steals total. The points saved might underrate him, since the Hornets seem to play slower when he's on the bench. Nonetheless, his on-ball work is more decent than spectacular, so I'm more comfortable with him in this group than in the top three.
Harris (1.14) was my first-team pick a year ago, but his numbers aren't as good this season, and I suspect he might be concentrating more on the offensive end -- especially since he went to Jersey.
Davis (2.62) was my third-team choice last year and still can bring it as well as anyone on a given night, but there are too many nights when he seems disinterested.
Third team: Chauncey Billups, Detroit (4.36)An honorable mention pick a year ago, Billups moves up to the third team. The Pistons have been one of the league's top-five defensive teams all season, and his ability to hold down the fort at the point of attack is one of the reasons.
Although quicker guards can give him some trouble, he's virtually impossible to post up and big enough to handle guarding 2s -- in fact, he often trades assignments with Richard Hamilton.
Second team: Keyon Dooling, Orlando (7.98)I was skittish about putting somebody who played so little so high up the list, but he's an active defender with good size, plus he can guard two positions and willingly pressures the ball. More importantly, his numbers pretty much leap off the page in terms of how much better the Magic defend with him on the court.
I'm sure he'll be completely ignored in the real All-Defense voting, but he's a quality defender who deserves a shout-out.
Honorable mention: Anthony Parker, Tony Allen, Ron Artest, John Salmons
Parker (-0.29) was my second-team choice a year ago, but his numbers haven't been nearly as strong this year and, subjectively, I don't think he has been quite as effective a stopper as he was last season.
Allen (4.06) was absolutely ferocious the three times I saw him in person, but the effort didn't seem quite as consistent in the TV games I watched, and he didn't play as much as the guys in the top three.
The Kings have been a horrid defensive team, but Artest (0.29) and Salmons (3.68) have been the two bright spots. However, Artest is too focused on his offense on too many nights, and Salmons went in the tank when Kevin Martin returned and he had to come off the bench.
Third team: Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers (4.21)Superstar players generally aren't asked to take on tough defensive assignments until late in games. But Bryant is asked to do it more often than most, and it's a job he does very well, making him a third-team pick for a second straight season.
Of particular note is that his D didn't appear to wane one iota after he suffered a midseason pinkie injury that will require surgery at some point in the offseason.
Second team: Raja Bell, Phoenix (4.59)While Bell's shooting has been a disappointment for much of the season, his defense has remained solid. It seems to me he has done less of the ref-baiting he did in years past and has focused more on just getting stops. It appears the strategy has worked.
Opposing shooting guards have a microscopic player efficiency rating of just 12.1 when he's on the court, according to 82games.com.
First team: Shane Battier, Houston (1.55)Although a small forward offensively, Battier has spent most of his time defending shooting guards. Plus, putting him here gives us the strongest first team overall -- so shooting guard it is.
This probably is the one case in which the numbers most disagree with my observations, and since Battier's points-saved totals in previous seasons were spectacular, this almost certainly is a fluke.
Subjectively, I thought Battier was clearly the best defensive wing in the league this season and was the best defender on the league's second-best defensive team. I expounded on his defensive skills a few weeks ago when I was following the Rockets during their winning streak, so I won't repeat myself now, except to say that if he doesn't make All-Defense this year, there is something terribly, terribly wrong.
Honorable mention: Josh Howard, Stephen Jackson, Andre Iguodala
Howard (4.17) has been one of the league's top two-way players for several years, but I'm not sure he's quite in the elite category at either end. It's his second straight year as an honorable mention pick and, once again, he just as easily could have been a third-teamer.
Jackson (2.53) is one of the few good defenders on a pretty lousy defensive team, but I don't think he moves laterally as well as some of the other guys on this list.
Iguodala (1.51) has outstanding tools and gives a decent effort for a guy with so much offensive responsibility. He's one of the reasons the surprising Sixers are seventh overall in defensive efficiency, so it wounds me a little to leave him off the list, but he can't quite hang with the top three guys.
Third team: Paul Pierce, Boston (6.90)One of the big reasons the Celtics have been so unbelievably good on defense is that Pierce has bought in to what they are doing and put up the most sustained defensive effort of his career.
His offensive numbers have suffered for it, but Boston's position in the standings speaks for itself. Pierce always has had the physique and foot speed to be a good defender, and this year, he's really put it all together.
Second team: Bruce Bowen, San Antonio (2.77)I don't think there's any question that Bowen, at 36, has slipped a little from his peak and isn't quite as devastating a force as he once was. That said, he's slipping from an awfully high peak.
Bowen still moves as well laterally as probably anyone in the game and has the same dogged mentality that's made him so frustrating for opposing scorers for the past decade.
First team: Tayshaun Prince, Detroit (6.83)For Prince, defense comes down to a simple premise -- he can play further off his man than anyone else in the league because his arms are so long he can still challenge the shot. As a result, it's very tough to get past him, yet it's very tough to get a clean look from the perimeter against him.
He also is great at picking up guards on switches and, since Ben Wallace left, he has been more vital to Detroit's defensive success.
Honorable mention: Kendrick Perkins, DeSagana Diop, Tyson Chandler, Jeff Foster
Perkins (7.42) has been the perfect complement to Kevin Garnett; he's a physical, dirty-work guy who will bang against the league's bigger post players, and he cares not a whit how many touches he gets at the other end. He can overdo it with the physicality at times, but he's an overlooked factor in the Celtics' success.
Chandler (2.42) is a little bit like teammate Chris Paul -- his importance is clear visually but tough to prove statistically. He's the best defender on a pretty good defensive team, but it's toughest to crack the top three at center, so he'll have to settle for honorable mention again.
Diop (8.54) has had awesome numbers, and observations back them up -- he's clearly one of the best defensive centers in basketball, both in terms of defending the post and offering help defense. But he's become so poor offensively that he hardly plays, making it tough to move him too far up this list.
Foster (5.87) is vastly underrated for his D. He might be the quickest center in the league and is perfectly comfortable going outside and checking small forwards. With Jermaine O'Neal out, he's been the key defender on a team that's somehow stayed in the middle of the pack in defensive efficiency.
Third team: Dwight Howard, Orlando (-0.52)Howard is the key defender on one of the league's best teams and obviously a dominant defensive rebounder. His points-saved numbers are shockingly average, but he also has been backed up by a very good defensive center, Adonal Foyle.
To me, the two more pertinent numbers are that opposing centers had a 12.9 PER against him and that Orlando is seventh in defensive efficiency with Howard as the only truly strong defender in the starting lineup.
Second team: Marcus Camby, Denver (1.77)Subjectively, I thought Camby defended at least as well this season as a year ago, when he won the defensive player of the year award. Of course, part of the way he accomplished this was by essentially taking the year off on offense, but we won't worry ourselves with that here.
Denver, believe it or not, ranks 10th in the NBA in defensive efficiency, and the mobility of big guys like Camby, Kenyon Martin and Eduardo Najera is the reason it ranks this high with its withering pace and the perimeter players' blatant disregard for D.
First team: Tim Duncan, San Antonio (3.94)The Spurs tend to limit Duncan's exposure to star post players, so we rarely get to see how good he is on a man-to-man basis. Instead, we have to content ourselves with watching his textbook help-defense and seeing how he never leaves his feet but always has a hand in position to block or alter a shot.
I think he, like Bowen, might have lost a bit from his peak, which is why the Spurs are "only" third in defensive efficiency this season, but he remains among the cream of the crop on D.
Honorable mention: Anderson Varejao, Boris Diaw, Josh Smith, Lamar Odom
I have to mention Diaw (5.29) because his numbers have been huge and opposing power forwards have had only a 13.6 PER against him. His numbers weren't anywhere near this good in past seasons, and subjectively, I don't see his being close to the class of some of these other guys, but the numbers warrant at least discussion.
Smith (2.83) is an amazing shot-blocker, and the other parts of his defensive game are rounding into shape … but they're not quite there yet. His lapses are definitely much fewer and farther between than in years past, so give him another year or two, and he'll probably climb into the top three.
Odom (5.02) has responded to his continually shrinking offensive role by playing quality defense at two positions and pulling down 11 boards per 40 minutes. He's a little overrated offensively, but he doesn't get nearly enough credit for how hard he plays on D.
Varejao (5.07) missed time with his holdout and an injury, and his timing was a little off when he came back, but you can see how important he is to the way Cleveland plays. He was a third-team pick a year ago and would have made it again if he'd played all season.
Third team: Chuck Hayes, Houston (7.46)A second-teamer a year ago, Hayes, at 6-6, is undersized for his position, but pound for pound, he's one of the league's strongest players. He knows how to use every ounce to push opponents out of prime post position.
His defensive stats have been ginormous all three seasons he's been in the league, so even though he lost his job to Luis Scola, he still gets a top-three selection here.
Second team: Rasheed Wallace, Detroit (5.99)Despite his well-earned rep as a hothead and loose cannon, Wallace is an intelligent help defender who uses his exceptional length to bother shooters. He makes very few mistakes, can defend the center spot in a pinch and does a decent job handling guards on switches.
As an added plus, he has handed out fewer free points this season than in years past by getting only 11 T's.
First team and defensive player of the year: Kevin Garnett, Boston (8.22)Yes, Garnett's defensive stats have been huge, but they tell only a fraction of the story. Boston was a middling defensive team a year ago, and it wasn't clear that trading for Ray Allen made it any better.
In other words, the entire jump from 18th in defensive efficiency a year ago to third all-time this season can pretty much be laid at the feet of Garnett. His intensity on the court is palpable, but perhaps even more important is how he has affected Pierce and the bench guys. I'm not sure whether that translates to MVP -- not when Chris Paul is saving basketball in New Orleans -- but if he doesn't win the defensive player of the year award, there needs to be an investigation, because he's been absolutely spectacular.
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 24 February 2009 17:40 (ten years ago) link
love this kid
― schrödinger's googler (agent hibachi), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 19:36 (ten years ago) link
finally saw him complete the little dipsy-doodle maneuver where he picks up his dribble, palming the ball, swings it back like he's going to pass behind his back and then brings it forward again and passes or shoots- you know what i mean
van gundy was hating on the move the other day and when he pulled it off it just looked so alien and beautiful, like someone who had never seen basketball would try to interpret a no-look-pass or something
― schrödinger's googler (agent hibachi), Tuesday, 24 February 2009 19:39 (ten years ago) link
also i like how mike breen says his name for some reason
― schrödinger's googler (agent hibachi), Wednesday, 25 February 2009 01:09 (ten years ago) link
yeah that move is hardcore
<3 that picture
― J0rdan S., Wednesday, 25 February 2009 01:12 (ten years ago) link
this guy was born in order for marv albert to say his name
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 26 February 2009 11:43 (ten years ago) link
― Dr. Phil, Wednesday, 8 April 2009 18:40 (ten years ago) link
cool article about rondo on espn: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&page=Rondo-090423&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines
he takes five showers a day and always has towels and flip flops around because he won't let his feet touch the floor. doc rivers once had to tell him that his teammates hated playing with him because his body language was so bad when something went wrong.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 23 April 2009 18:11 (ten years ago) link
Jesus what is it with the Celtics and these obsessive compulsives. First Ray Allen and now Rondo. Weirdos.
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:23 (ten years ago) link
any of the big three have trade value - can we start over w/rondo
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:24 (ten years ago) link
Someone will def. want Garnett (although given his health lately not sure if they should.) How many years left on Pierce and Allen at this point?
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:42 (ten years ago) link
garnett 3pierce 2allen 1
under normal financial skies the c's would be in perfect dealing position w/those years - these days it might be a lil tougher - not like theyre gonna trade any of them anyway
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:48 (ten years ago) link
I loved how he showed up to Game 1 in the Red Bull stock car - and then shimmied out the window looking like a cowboy in a button up tucked into his slacks.
Can't believe he's listed at only 6'1 - he has Igoudala-like reach for his size, and looks more like 6'3 or 6'4. Compare to someone like Aaron Brooks, who, despite being listed at 6', looks like he's shorter than Nate Robinson when he's on the floor.
― DJ Khaled El-Amin (dyao), Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:52 (ten years ago) link
Yeah Allen's the only one I could possibly see going.
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:53 (ten years ago) link
they imo do have a shot at the title next year - but age and injuries make it unlikely - if rondo plays like he did the last couple games and they pick up a free agent or two who knows
btw lil thought experiment imagine the c's get the second pick in the 07 draft and take durant - rondo + durant + big al + whoever they traded pierce for = sik young team
of course i wouldnt trade it all for the championship but still fun to think abt
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:54 (ten years ago) link
rondo + wing defender/shooter + durant + jefferson + perkins
cant stop thinking abt this
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:56 (ten years ago) link
If Garnett doesn't go to Boston in that scenario, I wonder who gets him.
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:57 (ten years ago) link
a lot of people thought chicago had better pieces than boston at the time - tho i agreed w/minnesota taking the deal w/the most promising player in it - prob a lot of people didnt realize how good jefferson was since he played on such a crappy team
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:03 (ten years ago) link
Is Al Jefferson good, or is he the new Shareef Abdur-Rahim/Elton Brand, piling up stats on bad teams? Obviously he's never had a truly good team around him, and he seems like a good dude, but it just makes me wonder.
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:05 (ten years ago) link
What was Chicago offering at the time? Deng? Gordon haha?
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:07 (ten years ago) link
Nah Jefferson (and Brand) is much better than Abdur-Rahim was. Wow Brand's really quickly gone from All Star to mediocrity in peoples' eyes, hasn't he?
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:12 (ten years ago) link
Admittedly getting hurt all the time will do that to your perceived value.
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:13 (ten years ago) link
i dont think jeffersons best player on a championship team good - cause his d is only middling - but i do think hes like multiple all star type good - second best guy on a title team good
i somewhat take issue w/the whole good stats on a bad team concept cause usually those guys dont actually have good stats - like they score a ton of points but have a bad fg% tons tos and play no D and maybe they grab a some boards cause no one else on their team can rebound - SAR fits that bill - tho elton brand imo was a legit dominant player - hes just all fucked up and in the hospital and shit now - and some of his clippers teams were totally dece
i dont know that anyone knew exactly what chicago offered but yeah they had a bunch of young guys and some draft picks - ty thomas was def in the mix w/those two guys u mentioned
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 23 April 2009 23:13 (ten years ago) link
one thing i'll trust bill simmons' opinion is boston sports, and he harps so much on the profound effect that kg, allen and pierce had on rondo that i wonder if he had been on a team w/ durant and jefferson if he would've developed like he has. and even beyond the mental part of the game, obv having three talents like that allowed for him some breathing room, allowed for him to concentrate on D, makes it easier for him to get to the basket etc etc
― pleasure p (J0rdan S.), Friday, 24 April 2009 00:04 (ten years ago) link
Rondo has 16 pt 8 rebounds at the half, dude is amazing.
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 24 April 2009 01:26 (ten years ago) link
dude is having one heck of a series so far
― 6335, Friday, 24 April 2009 01:57 (ten years ago) link
he got carried off the court at the end of the game. wtf. anybody know what it is? hopefully just a cramp.
― collardio gelatinous, Friday, 24 April 2009 02:45 (ten years ago) link
"bottom of my feet were hurting" he just said.
― collardio gelatinous, Friday, 24 April 2009 02:48 (ten years ago) link
― collardio gelatinous, Friday, 24 April 2009 03:10 (ten years ago) link
― Dr. Phil, Friday, 24 April 2009 03:31 (ten years ago) link
one thing i'll trust bill simmons' opinion is boston sports, and he harps so much on the profound effect that kg, allen and pierce had on rondo
i'm as suspicious of intangibles in sports as anybody, and i will say forever to anyone who will listen that it is impossible to understate the effect that kg had on the celtics as a franchise. rondo, perk, big baby, and pierce (that is just the definite 100% shortlist) were profoundly affected by him.
as fun as it is to consider various rondo/jefferson/other cool dudes scenarios such a team would get absolutely obliterated by a team like cleveland imo.
― call all destroyer, Friday, 24 April 2009 03:59 (ten years ago) link
now theyd be obliterated - in the future theyd be playing ok city staring other kevin durant for the title
― ice cr?m, Friday, 24 April 2009 04:47 (ten years ago) link
and mentorship can have a profound impact def - but the problem w/gaming the scenario is u hav no idea what sort of people and environments rondo wouldve encountered otherwise and what his reaction wouldve been to them - theres def some value over replacement mentor calculus happening but ehhhhh imo
its mostly a giant tautology - the main impact garnett has had on the celtics is that hes really good as basketball - u can see this effect now when hes injured and not playing but still around to yell at people and the celtics are much worse - like i said on the good player/bad team thread w/paul pierce part of it is people having to invent a story to compensate for underrating garnett all those years cause his teams didnt win
― ice cr?m, Friday, 24 April 2009 04:54 (ten years ago) link
i don't even know if i agree w/this. you generally win in the nba by having a top 3 player, a couple top 20 players, and/or playing elite defense. would a rondo/jefferson team have ended up fitting one of those molds? possibly, but not too sure.
re: mentoring i totally hear you and agree to a large extent, but it's hard to fully state how much things changed when garnett arrived--from the players to the coaches/front office to the media to the fans. this didn't happen when pierce reupped w/boston, and sure as hell didn't happen when they traded for ray (a move which was generally met with suspicion). i don't know what other player would have such a transformative effect. look at perk--three years ago he was a soft, slightly reticent project big man, now he's one of the toughest interior defenders in the league, a pro trash talker and scary dude. per anything i've ever read that's pretty much all kg.
when you mention garnett's losing teams you are actually getting at some of the irony of him. while he is really good at basketball, especially defense, he is not really an elite offensive player. the effects that he has had on this team are all defense and "intangibles."
― call all destroyer, Friday, 24 April 2009 13:30 (ten years ago) link
i completely disagree w/yr pre garnett perk characterization - his big improvement has been to cut down on fouling - he matured def but the potential was always there
not sure how yr defining intangibles here but its seemingly quite broad - more accurate to say that garnet is a v good scorer and world class at everything else - imo scoring/defense/intangibles isnt really an accurate way to look at a player
anyway not sure exactly what yr point there is - garnetts teams lost cause the other players besides him sucked - big exception was the cassell/sprewell team which had a v good shot at taking the title until cassell got injured in the conference finals
and u clearly dont need a top three player to win it all but it does obv help - tho realistically were prob actually talking abt top 5 or 7 - the winner always gets his stock bumped a bit by the success - anyway that guy in our scenario is kevin durant
― ice cr?m, Friday, 24 April 2009 14:28 (ten years ago) link
I think that it isn't anything about Allen or Garnett specifically, but surrounding a talented guy like Rondo with three guys who are all similarly talented but veteran, instead of guys like Al Jeff or etc. who are talented but haven't accomplished anything, or the guys Rondo ran with at Kentucky, dudes of an inferior talent level ... the big 3 gave him an idea of how to improve and sustain that improvement. When you have a guy like that who has that arrogant self-belief, he simply isn't going to be mentored by guys who don't have that same level of ability, and Pierce alone was only one voice, one possible avenue to greatness. But when he can see the common traits those 3 guys have on a day to day basis, and when those three great players echo what Rondo is hearing from Rivers, it gives Rivers' opinions and orders more weight, and Ainge and Thibodeau and the other coaches as well.
And that honestly makes me wonder how great someone like Monta Ellis could be if he had the same sort of influences around him, instead of shoot-first dudes like Jackson and Crawford as his mentors.
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 24 April 2009 17:08 (ten years ago) link
this is why i am in the fan club
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 28 March 2017 21:30 (two years ago) link
lmao what a weirdo
― call all destroyer, Tuesday, 28 March 2017 21:35 (two years ago) link
― 龜, Wednesday, 19 April 2017 14:27 (two years ago) link
man if he could bring himself to care on a regular basis...
― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 19 April 2017 14:31 (two years ago) link
tbh if i had the talent to be an nba player i'd probably act like him too
― 龜, Wednesday, 19 April 2017 14:34 (two years ago) link
yeah i have to say dude has taken it next-level this year, so in control of his game
― suggban stevens (J0rdan S.), Monday, February 23, 2009 11:42 PM (eight years ago)
man remember when we used to love rondo? i have a jersey of his in my closet lol
― k3vin k., Thursday, 20 April 2017 03:40 (two years ago) link
he was a blast. i think he got bored with the game tbh.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 20 April 2017 03:42 (two years ago) link
peaked v early. title winner, all star. what else was left for him to achieve other than collecting these checks?
― nice cage (m bison), Thursday, 20 April 2017 03:53 (two years ago) link
i want an in-depth investigation into his game by zach lowe or something. was it really a matter of peaking early and losing interest? or was his stature inflated because of good teammates? the fan club demands answers
― k3vin k., Thursday, 20 April 2017 03:58 (two years ago) link
round 1 is like Rondo's last big heist, the bulls kinda backed into this opportunity for Rajon revenge (with a little help from the Cavs)
― nomar, Thursday, 20 April 2017 04:01 (two years ago) link
rondo has alway been such an enigma right down to the fact that you cant tell if hes ever been good at basketball, which is what inspired me most to join the fan club
― lag∞n, Thursday, 20 April 2017 05:50 (two years ago) link
also i think the nba is much less amenable to his style of play than it was when he came into the league
yeah the league figured out how to deal with guards who can't shoot, add in questionable defensive effort and he's not the guy who can just coast on talent
― k3vin k., Thursday, 20 April 2017 12:08 (two years ago) link
also the classic ball dominating point guard doesnt really work any more since defenses make u move the ball from side to side to side so much
― lag∞n, Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:11 (two years ago) link
cp is the outlier?
― Spottie, Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:19 (two years ago) link
feel like if u can score really crazily well u can kinda still do it like harden and russ dominate the ball and get tons of assists but outside those superstar players it doesnt really happen any more
― lag∞n, Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:22 (two years ago) link
feel like his focus went from "how can I as PG best help my team win" to "how can I as Rajon Rondo accumulate the most assists possible"
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 20 April 2017 21:35 (two years ago) link
ya hes def a ridiculous stat hunter
― lag∞n, Friday, 21 April 2017 02:39 (two years ago) link
another sign that the game is frequently boring to him
― call all destroyer, Friday, 21 April 2017 02:42 (two years ago) link
Bulls' Rajon Rondo is out indefinitely w/ a broken right thumb.
― lag∞n, Friday, 21 April 2017 15:05 (two years ago) link
― Spottie, Friday, 21 April 2017 15:24 (two years ago) link
― lag∞n, Friday, 21 April 2017 15:29 (two years ago) link
― micah, Friday, 12 May 2017 08:31 (two years ago) link
― micah, Friday, 12 May 2017 08:32 (two years ago) link
wow! excellent find.
― Spottie, Friday, 12 May 2017 23:26 (two years ago) link
― micah, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 10:01 (one year ago) link
lmao rondo still got it
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:31 (one year ago) link
i live in dallas and why did rondo basically spend his entire stint here with his middle finger in the air? obv i'm not huge into bball but i was a big fan and was excited when he signed on here, but dayumm
― ur-oik (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:46 (one year ago) link
rondo and rick carlisle probably the two most stubborn people in the nba, and rick didn't want him in the first place.
― call all destroyer, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:15 (one year ago) link
Rajon Rondo - 真中锋 "A True Center"Because despite playing guard, Rondo is terrible at three-pointers and free throws, scores almost all of his points in the paint, and brings down large numbers of rebounds.— Nick Kapur (@nick_kapur) May 11, 2018
― 龜, Friday, 11 May 2018 21:29 (one year ago) link
My lasting impression of Rondo came in locker room scrum after Anthony Davis had 53 vs. Suns:Me: You’ve played with & against a lot of great players in your career. Can you put into perspective what A.D. is doing right now?Rondo: Whatcha want me to do? Suck him off?Me: Uh.— Jeff Duncan (@JeffDuncan_) July 2, 2018
― sprout god (lag∞n), Monday, 2 July 2018 23:42 (one year ago) link
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 2 July 2018 23:44 (one year ago) link
“I can’t really say what I can’t use my right hand for” 😂😂😂 pic.twitter.com/HwkZIQei1U— NBA Central (@TheNBACentral) November 23, 2018
― Spottie, Saturday, 24 November 2018 00:45 (nine months ago) link
I was wondering how Rondo is such a beloved teammate everywhere he goes. Apparently the answer is food. https://t.co/cdXoDw2ah1 pic.twitter.com/8WQN8xg9Fk— Taco Trey Kerby (@treykerby) April 10, 2019
― but I can't let Trae do it I got Huerter on my mind (Spottie), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 20:56 (five months ago) link