Bob Dylan: Borrower or thief?

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are they still surviving????

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 August 2006 21:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Robert Johnson's estate was a real mess - a lot of people went after it. Yes, he died a pauper, but the royalties that amassed after his death were worth around a million USD in 2000, when the Mississippi Supreme Court designated "a retired gravel truck driver whose mother had a fling with the musician in 1931" as sole heir.

Bass-man (bassguy), Saturday, 26 August 2006 21:12 (seventeen years ago) link

he could prove that rbt johnson was his father?

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 August 2006 21:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Apparently, some women testified seeing this guys mother and RJ having sex, and this fellow was borne nine months later... How this stood up is beyond me... must have been a memorable session...

I guess some challenge was made based on lack of DNA evidence, but no one is sure where Johnson is bureid, so that was tossed.

Bass-man (bassguy), Saturday, 26 August 2006 21:22 (seventeen years ago) link

pardon the bad pun in the previous post...

Bass-man (bassguy), Saturday, 26 August 2006 21:23 (seventeen years ago) link

The edition of MT I quoted from came out in '97.

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Sunday, 27 August 2006 00:16 (seventeen years ago) link

In the article I was reading there was reference to relatives of a deceased half-sister of Robert Johnson trying to make claim... I guess their story wasn't particularly convincing. Like I said, the whole deal seemed pretty messy and confusing... Link this inheritance clusterfuck to the songwriting discussion above and maybe we get back to the point... Who's really the "father"? Not always an easy answer...

Bass-man (bassguy), Sunday, 27 August 2006 01:46 (seventeen years ago) link

99% of my records are in storage (snif) so if someone else could (fact)check their Let It Bleed, "cuz" the whole thing is about publishing. Did Cooder get songwriting credit?

This actually goes back to the heart of the original question: who wrote the song, and who got paid for it?

And to the points above:

A - "bluesmen" were ripping each other of for years before the English white boys came around to really cash in, and

B - How clued were Dylan, Clapton, Page, et al regarding the mechanics of copyrights, how old were they, how powerful was their management, and even who owned their publishing? Publishing companies and artist management is very powerful in these situations and it's more than possible that these guys had no say in it whatsoever.

Or it could be that they were pricks, and only too happy to rip off their heroes.

And to my fact checking cuz... what''s in a name anyway?

factcheckr (factcheckr), Sunday, 27 August 2006 10:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Nice recap, factcheckr!

I don't have a copy of Let It Bleed (anymore...) but the Ry Cooder geek sites seem to indicate that he played on Beggar's Banquet (uncredited: mandolin), Let It Bleed (credit: mandolin) and Sticky Fingers (credit: guitar on Sister Morphine). The common story (uncertain how accurate, if at all) is that he was messing aroudn with open tunings and showed Keith how ot use them (which he certain did after, not sure before -- guitar geeks out there???) The story continues that he either played the intro to Honky Tonk Women on recrod or that he did it in the studio just messing around and the lads nicked it.... in the fine tradition noted above...

Bass-man (bassguy), Sunday, 27 August 2006 12:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Shakespeare never paid any royalties either

Lynco (lync0), Sunday, 27 August 2006 16:25 (seventeen years ago) link

i thought of this thread today when i was listening to Blind Willie McTell's "Death Cell Blues" and recognized the verses from Willie Dixon's "Third Degree."

I first listened to McTell a couple years back when I heard Dylan's "Willie McTell," which has the same tune as "St. James Infirmary Blues."

Anyway, did David Johansen give Dylan an "arrangement" credit on his Harry Smiths version of "Delia," which was Dylan's combination of McTell's "Delia" and Reverend Gary Davis' "All the Friends I Ever Had Are Gone" from World Gone Wrong?

to sum up: thieves, all of 'em.

p@reene (Pareene), Sunday, 27 August 2006 18:54 (seventeen years ago) link

How clued were Dylan, Clapton, Page, et al regarding the mechanics of copyrights, how old were they, how powerful was their management, and even who owned their publishing? Publishing companies and artist management is very powerful in these situations and it's more than possible that these guys had no say in it whatsoever.

dunno 'bout dylan and page, but cream (more jack bruce than clapton, it would seem) actually went to some lengths to make sure the correct people were credited and actually received royalties. they had personal contact with skip james and saw to it that he got $ from "i'm so glad." skip saw them play the song shortly before his death, and his widow sent a letter of gratitude to jack bruce.

Lawrence the Looter (Lawrence the Looter), Sunday, 27 August 2006 19:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Re "Honky Tonk Women": Hear Ike Turner's 1970 "Takin' Back My Name," which borrows several licks from the record.

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Sunday, 27 August 2006 21:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Again, this is a little off teh intent of the original thread, but I think still is germain to the discussion. I believe that Jogn Lee Hooker sued ZZ Top for La Grange as a ripoff of (I think) Boogie Chillun... If I recall the recall the challenge correctly (and plese, blues people, kick my ass if I'm wrong) it was based on the used of the boogie riff (...I'm mean, c'mon... his lawyers were reachin' on that one) and that they used the singature Hooker catch phrase ("how how how how") I beleive that the case got tossed. I suspect that the ZZ Top guys (who are fuckin geezers themselves and been aroudn long enough to know how bad people have been boned, prob'ly themselves included at some point) were simply doing a boogie tune and thought it would be cool to quote the Hooker phrase (a common practice in jazz) So, the question is at what point does a quote become a ripoff? Leave that to the lawyers, maybe...

Bass-man (bassguy), Sunday, 27 August 2006 23:39 (seventeen years ago) link


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