― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link
As a footnote, the football club Athletic Bilbao will only field Basque players and yet, miraculously have won the league a number of times. Real Socieded (based in San Sebastian) will only field Basques or foreignors and not Spanish players. The other Basque teams are not so selective.
Knew I could work a football reference in somehow.
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:15 (nineteen years ago) link
Another weird language: Celtiberian!!!
In Spain, the linguistic position was rather complicated. Much of central and northern Spain was occupied by the Celtic people who we call the Celtiberians. These Celts had writing, and they left behind some written texts, including the famous bronze tablet of Botorrita, which we can read only partly. The Mediterranean coast of Spain (and also a small part of southern France) was occupied by a quite different people who we call the Iberians. The Iberians too had writing, and they have bequeathed us a sizable number of written texts in their Iberian language. For a long time we could make no sense of these, but, in the first half of the 20th century, the Spanish linguist Manuel Gómez Moreno succeeded in figuring out the phonetic values of the characters, and so we can now read Iberian to the extent of being able to pronounce it. However, we still can't make the slightest sense of the texts, because Iberian has turned out to be a completely unknown language: it is certainly not Indo-European, and in fact we are confident that Iberian is not discoverably related to any other known language (including Basque -- see below).
I *knew* there was a Celtic language which was non-I-E!
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:17 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:18 (nineteen years ago) link
They play bagpipes too and Galician folk music is hauntingly lovely.
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:20 (nineteen years ago) link
How about Galatian, an extinct Celtic language once spoken in Asia Minor (modern Turkey)?
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:32 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:33 (nineteen years ago) link
catalan is more like a mixture of french and portuguese than spanish, in my experience. not genetically, but just in terms of what it looks like, it sounds like spanish being spoken by people with no teeth, to my ears. its a romance language though. there's no genetic connection to basque, galician or celtic.
― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Dickerson Pike (Dickerson Pike), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:57 (nineteen years ago) link
― Dickerson Pike (Dickerson Pike), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:59 (nineteen years ago) link
yeah, Catalan's certainly got plenty in common with French and Spanish. But there is a weird Germanic aspect to it too.
Originally 'Goatalonia', Catalonia means land of the Goths, the Goths in question being the West Goths known as the Visigohts. All the western romance languages have some germanic influence due to Lombard, Goth, Vandal, Frank, Burgundian, and others invasions.
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super-Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― thing of thing, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― anthony, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:24 (nineteen years ago) link
'Cause they didn't know how to spell.
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 14:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:14 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:34 (nineteen years ago) link
― alix (alix), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 16:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 16:21 (nineteen years ago) link
i love this thread--and this board, by the way! it's putting my linguistics degree to use.
― waxyjax (waxyjax), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 16:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― briania, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:03 (nineteen years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― briania, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:14 (nineteen years ago) link
Hmm, I don't if I'm an expert on linguistics. One thing I can say is that Finnish verbs and nouns have several different forms of conjugation, unlike in English. This is due the fact that are no pro/postpositions in Finnish, instead we have case endings. Also, other "supporting" words can be replaced by endings as well; and, in the first and second person the personal pronoun is included in the verb (like in Spanish), only the third person requires you to write the pronoun. Let me demonstrate it with two Finnish words, "kävellä" ("to walk") and "pöytä" ("a table"):
I walk = kävelenyou walk = käveletshe walks = hän käveleewe walk = kävelemmeyou walk = kävelettethey walk = he kävelevät
while walking = kävellessäänafter walking = käveltyäänwithout walking = kävelemättäto walk around = käveleskelläetc.
a table = pöytäin the table = pöydässäoff the table = pöydältäfrom the table = pöydästäto the table = pöytään(it is) on the table = pöydällä(put that) on the table = pöydällewithout a table = pöydättä(look) at the table = pöytääwith a table = pöytineenetc.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:29 (nineteen years ago) link
Old Frisian is incredibly similar to Old English - your grandparents could have talked to Beowulf quite easily.
Chaucer, however, spoke Middle English. Written Middle English would seem familiar-ish to a reader of Modern English. (Some words seem more obscure than others.) However, the way it was *pronounced* ... ye gads! This was before the GREAT VOWEL SHIFT, so it would have been pronounced in a more "European" way. (Or perhaps more like a West Country Yokel.) Also, the random "e"s on the end of words would have been pronounced. So when I take the piss out of "Ye Old-ie Tourist-ie Shop-ie" that's actually quite close to the way that Ye Olde Shoppe would have been pronounced. (Except Y was thorn, oh how I love thorn, bring it back.)
I am fascinated by the GREAT VOWEL SHIFT. No one really knew why it took place. It just happened over the course of the 16th Century.
(If I wasn't Against the Excelsior threads, I would be putting this in it: "There's a Frieslander come to talk to you, Geoffrey." "Tell them to go away - I'm dead".)
The linguistics book I'm reading at the moment must be very old. It gets into the effect of West African languages' syntax on Black English ("Women be shopping") without bringing up the dread spectre of Ebonics. (Though considering the mistakes it's made about the Finns and Arrowsmithing, I'm not sure I believe it.)
― Super-Kate (kate), Thursday, 29 April 2004 06:55 (nineteen years ago) link
(he also told me that the american accent derives from the west country accent of four centuries ago, and the australian accent from the cockney accent of two centuries ago)
(he also sometimes makes things up by mistake)
― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 29 April 2004 06:59 (nineteen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:04 (nineteen years ago) link
Australia = Cockney, this is actually true.
― Super-Kate (kate), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:06 (nineteen years ago) link
(Why do I always imagine that with really heavy reverb on it?)
― Super-Kate (kate), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― Sam (chirombo), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:08 (nineteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:35 (nineteen years ago) link
I'm sorry, that was a poor attempt at a joke. Cracking thread, Kate.
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:48 (nineteen years ago) link
(The Carribean-West Country connection is actually more plausible. Except, again, with large interference by West African grammar and syntax.)
The Southern US - West Country thing seemed plausible because of the vowels. (Southern US vowels show distinct pre-GVS tendencies, but this was common all over the more backwater parts of the UK at the time, such as the Midlands, where many of the Puritans etc. actually came from) However, Southern US accents do *not* show the consonant shift which is very distinctive of West Country accents. ("Zee" for see, "Zoider" for cider, "Vox" for fox, etc.)
― Super-Kate (kate), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:56 (nineteen years ago) link
My immediate thought was Jake Thackray, that's how I knew about this. I really like the song, too.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 22:34 (four years ago) link
... or the North... or England...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Tan_Tethera
― Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 22:35 (four years ago) link
a Thackray wormhole on you tube is a very good hour spent.
― calzino, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 23:03 (four years ago) link
Jake was The Man.
― Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 23:22 (four years ago) link
Beautiful song. I never knew there were so many variants of Yan Tan Tether Mether (the version I knew, which according to the wiki, turns out to be the Swaledale variant!).
― Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 10 July 2019 10:20 (four years ago) link