no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Yeah, I think she has. She very very briefly talked about maybe not having it but then burst into tears immediately and said that she just couldn't do that which I do understand and I mean God I'd never presume to tell anyone what to do or think in any way in that situation but the whole thing is just so fucking far from ideal and nuts that I can't really wrap my head around it but I'm gonna have to try if I'm gonna see her and meet him next weekend.

I think mostly I'm just still in shock.

That's a rough set of circumstances under which to have a baby.

er, yeah... that sounds like a disaster.

Yep and I mean that's why I'm trying to be as supportive as possible but it's really really hard not to want to just take her by the shoulders, shake her, and be like what planet are you living on where this seems like even a remotely non-disastrous idea?!

Obviously it's her decision and I'm going to support her in whatever she ultimately does but it's just been a lot to take in though I feel shitty even saying that since I know it must be a million times harder for her etc. Sigh. We'll see what happens I guess.

what are her issues with abortion? is she religious?

Just as a counterpoint:

A good friend of mine got pregnant by her drug dealing, abusive boyfriend who was in the country illegally (so without any legit employment prospects even if he were suited to legit employment, which he was not) and was a monster dumbass. She was also doing a whole lot of speed at the time and living the high roller drug dealer's girlfriend lifestyle (such as it was) and she decided to carry the pregnancy to term* and now she's a nurse living in a 'burb of Atlanta with her solid, upstanding boyfriend, two dogs, and a pretty great nine-year-old kid.

I am NOT one for the narrative of women being saved by their pregnancies, but in this case, the reality of bringing a baby into her current situation actually galvanized her** to get out of her situation, move in with her parents to regroup for a few years, and then take her life in a healthier direction.

*more like she lived in terrible denial about it for so long (despite my numerous phone calls to her telling her to get to Planned Parenthood already what the hell is her problem) that the decision was eventually out of her hands, but that in and of itself is a decision, you know?

**not to say in any way whatsoever that women in abusive situations just need to "get motivated" and leave. The part where she actually made her break from this guy was pretty bad.

I'd add to carl's counterpoint that this is the kind of situation that new-skool social workers would approach from a "strengths-based" perspective, focusing on strengths, resources, any and all positives that your friend can draw on (like you!) instead of getting blinded by the obvious negatives. It is amazing how resilient people are; they just manage even in the face of absurd odds.

Thanks, Carl. I know that crazier things have happened and worked out and that maybe this won't end badly and I really hope that if she decides to carry to term and parent that this will be one of those situations.

Rox - no? I mean she's not Catholic or anything like that but she'd probably say she was "spiritual" and she's into a lot of new agey type stuff (nb we are v v different). I think more than anything she's got it in her head that this is the only chance she'll ever have to have a kid and she desperately wants a baby. She keeps saying "But I'm 35!" and stuff like that. I've tried to tell her that it's not but she's not really hearing it. Also the day she found out she put one of those "your baby is the size of a grape" things on her phone and keeps referencing that too.

x-post - That's what I'm trying to do. I think she'd actually be a really great mom with the right partner and support system I'm just not sure that she has either of those right now and worry that she'll get very overwhelmed. You're right though and that's what I'm going to try to do.

this is the kind of situation that new-skool social workers would approach from a "strengths-based" perspective, focusing on strengths, resources, any and all positives that your friend can draw on (like you!) instead of getting blinded by the obvious negatives.

This is kool, thanks.

i went through a similar thing with a friend very recently and it was hella stressful for me (which of course made me feel like a selfish asshole)
i'm still trying to slog through it honestly, among 500 other things
being stressed out suuuuuucks

also rox i'm glad you have some answers -- i can totally see how that would be reassuring

(which of course made me feel like a selfish asshole)

Yes!

Part of me is like why is this stressing me out so much but I feel really uneasy about the entire thing. Also, I'm still pretty stressed out these days generally speaking which I'm sure isn't helping how I'm dealing with this but I just keep telling myself to just be there and listen and hope for the best etc. I pretty excited to go down and see her next week as I haven't in a while and I know she's looking forward to it too. There's a chance I might see her family though and I hope it doesn't all get too dramatic.

side note - I was looking at cards to get her and found one that killed me that said "Congratulations on your new huge boobs" but then I worried that she might not think it was that funny or be insulted because somehow cause he kind of already has enormous boobs so I got a different one and then the next day she texts me a picture of herself that says "my boobs are huge!" and I was like DAMMIT!

This is kind of like being supportive when your friend is marrying someone terrible but you're not sure they can be dissuaded, only more so: eventually there's going to be another person and another relationship to worry about (with the spouse/offspring) so you have to look long-term. (Only in the case of offspring obv the offspring is innocent and not terrible.)

my way of dealing with it was to try not to absorb the stress/responsibility of comforting and just be there in a practical sense and supportive/positive about the future.

Woo if she's already comparing the fetus to fruit, her mind is made up.

Well, I just got a text with the ultrasound pic (those things are wild, huh?) and a follow-up message that the baby d is walking 2 miles home because he stormed out of the car and decided to "act ghetto". Whoo boy.

Wow, this is stir-ry. I wish your friend the very best, and all the joys... I hope her man shapes up or she ends it clean, but whatever happens
hell idk what I'm trying to say
best to her, anyway, and to you. 'be supportive/positive' = excellent friendship approach.

I'm having to give myself quite a bit of self-coaching on KIP while visiting my brother and his wife. Their marriage is so incredibly WTF to me, but what can I do? Not much.

am i the only one who immediately thought of her probably now being infected with HIV and possibly with a future infected child? That just seems massively irresponsible.

and cruel to purposefully bring a kid into the world with that kind of burden on their shoulders.

actually, that was my question too: is the fact the babby daddy is HIV + gonna have serious effects on the kid's health?

I mean, if she got pregnant, they aren't using protection. Soooo... yeah, i mean, isn't she HIV+ now???

No.

Heterosexual sex isn't actually a very effective means of transmitting HIV. I'm not gonna quote statistics that I can't remember exactly here but basically a serodiscordant couple (one +, one not) can have unprotected sex (PIV) every day for an entire year and the negative partner still won't even necessarily catch HIV. Like I said, I can't remember the % but it's way higher than you'd think (that the one partner would remain -). Now that's an unmedicated HIV+ person. ART has had a huge huge huge impact the transmission of the virus. If a + person is on ART and has an undetectable viral load (meaning the number of copies of the virus in their blood) then risk of transmission during heterosexual sex to the negative partner is effectively 0%. As far as I understand it that is the case with said person. He is on ART and his viral load is undetectable.

(also this all might not be 100% correct but it's the general idea)

So as long as the medication remains effective and he stays undetectable they could conceivably have unprotected sex forever and she'd never get it. However there are certain things called viral spikes that could put her at increased but still low risk. Now - the medicine could stop working - some people become resistant to certain ART and they stop working but there's every chance that he might be able to stay on it forever. Also, mother-to-child transmission doesn't happen in utero but during the actual birth process so if she did become + during the pregnancy then what they'd do is towards the very end they'd put her on prophylactic ART and do a C-Section to avoid this. By doing that mother-to-child transmission has virtually been eliminated in the US/Europe.

I was scarred during the 90's AIDS awareness campaigns and thought I'd get HIV really easily without using a condom.

sorry I wrote that out all really fast so it might not all make sense but I gotta catch my bus will re-read later to see if it does

x-post - of course you were - so was I! We had the living shit scared out of us. Oh I have so many thoughts on this. Later!

but basically that's simply not true and you're way way way more likely to get a zillion other things first statistically speaking.

That made clear sense to me. I knew some of that about hetero transmission rates, but didn't know that they had taken care of mother-to-child transmission. Good news, everyone!

ENBB I am v. interested in your thoughts on that issue.

(also nb there are things that make what I just said untrue like presence of open lesions and/or vaginal tears or time of the month and general health just saying that so nobody jumps down my throat)

i will not jump down your throat because of open lesions

Here's a little on the m-t-c thing: http://www.cdc.gov/globalaids/global-hiv-aids-at-cdc/eliminating-hiv-infections.html

"Without diagnosis and treatment, about 35% of HIV-infected pregnant women will transmit HIV to their infants. Key interventions, including those listed in the right column, have reduced mother-to-child transmission in the United States to <1% (CDC, 2007), in Botswana to 3.6% (Tlale J, 2008), and in South Africa to 3.5% (MRC South Africa, 2011) in infants 4-8 weeks of age."

Though that doesn't say anything about the vaginal v. c-section thing. hmmm. I swear I read that. Will have to look later. CA - Will def write more!

That's fantastic. I love when we humans get things right re: medical advances.

well, that definitely makes this having a kid thing seem way less controversial to me. I mean, it's dumb, but not hand-on-head-wtf level that I was at

yeah, there are seriously only a handful of babies born HIV positive in the US anymore, and it pretty much only happens when there is no prenatal care.

Take a look at this handy chart of transmission statistics from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/

Male-to-male sexual contact is still, by far, how most HIV pos folks contract the virus. Women, it would seem, are twice as likely to contract HIV from hetero sex than men are.

(click on Diagnoses of HIV Infection, by Transmission Category)

Which *I think* has to do with the way het sex works like women are exposed to more fluids as the receptive partner and the vag is one big mucous membrane and more susceptible to tears etc than the penis. I'm sure there are other factors too but I think those are big ones.

Btw that was why I listed HIV Last because out of all the shit going on here it's actually maybe the least concerning in the immediate future. Except for how it will effect him and her (and baby) emotionally directly and indirectly etc. it was just another level. Also they have been dating 4 mos! So much to take on.

yes, re: first post. Same thing goes for receptive buttsecks, though, too.
However: she could totally still turn up HIV+. She's only been banging this dude for 4 mos. How motivated is this stoner without a job to stay on his meds?

Yep. That's a very good point and one of the things that worries me. There's always a risk esp if he doesn't adhere to meds etc.

Also, this story just got worse.

:/

oh no, what happened? twins?

I hope it's not twins.