Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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i think it's not so much "her inability to feel ecstatic" so much as the fact that that music simply makes no real efforts to actually approach genuine ecstasy.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (sixteen years ago) link

(And the reason I love androids is because my insulin pump makes me feel PART MACHINE myself, so I can almost empathize with someone like Hilary. Or Nick Jonas, who is an android...with an insulin pump!!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (sixteen years ago) link

or i could say "it's a bunch of phony bullshit"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (sixteen years ago) link

No, Ashlee's NOT an android. See Rolling Teenpop 2006 for about fifty thousand examples.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (sixteen years ago) link

i have no problem with forced ecstasy either, i should point out. i just like it when it's constructed in such a way that it doesn't foreground the obligation aspect in either songwriting or production.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (sixteen years ago) link

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (sixteen years ago) link

he wasn't ambivalent, alfred. he said he hated it.

He hated the song, was ambivalent about what it portended. Whatever.

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers

We're going 'round the mulberry bush here. Isn't this what critics do, like, ALL THE TIME? Like, I'm trying to figure out why this new Field record bores me while my peers think it's masterful.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (sixteen years ago) link

the best examples, i should say.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (sixteen years ago) link

"Beat of My Heart": great songwriting, great production! Dude from Good Charlotte at the knobs!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (sixteen years ago) link

well you've certainly convinced me

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (sixteen years ago) link

we're not gonna have to do another lex-ethering sessions as per upthread are we?

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (sixteen years ago) link

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

But if I'm "forced" to do anything (even feel ecstasy), wouldn't I want to play xbox or paint my toenails anyway?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (sixteen years ago) link

it's a good thing there are objective truths about music.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (sixteen years ago) link

I mean this would all be pretty ridiculous otherwise huh?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (sixteen years ago) link

"forced" in the sense that it's their only note

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:54 (sixteen years ago) link

assembly line, blah blah

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:54 (sixteen years ago) link

Treating teenpop the way old school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types (that earnest, benefit-of-the-doubt "what do they mean?" thing) is refreshing at first, but then you realize that some people treat teenpoppers the way old-school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types but seem to not do it for anyone else with the same passion. It's as if they don't want to give every artist under the sun this kind of enraptured attention, just young ladies. And being scalliwags ourselves, we assume the funniest and most logical reasons for this.

btw, I can't believe Jess still remembers my Duff review. Flattered!

― da croupier, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

(or am I misinterpreting that...what is the "obligation aspect"?)

No, I don't really go in for "this is great, period." I can't really go that deep into what I like about "Beat of My Heart," except to say her voice suits its insistence and ambivalence (the song is actually NOT about ecstasy -- the "beat of my heart, it tears us apart!!!"), she doesn't overshoot the mark with chops, either (kind of how Lillix find a nice balance in "Sweet Temptation"; a "better" singer would have killed that song, though Hilary might have even been a better choice for it -- this is what Abby Poptext argued at the time on the teenpop trhead).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm not saying that trance or happy hardcore producers don't sit down to make music and draw on their HOPES AND DREAMS AND PAINS AND FEARS and whatnot, but they're working, by and large, within a template, and so yr not gonna get a lot of deviation based on "organic" songwriting, this one's from the heart blah blah blah

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

some people treat teenpoppers the way old-school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types but seem to not do it for anyone else with the same passion

who?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (sixteen years ago) link

the lex

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (sixteen years ago) link

throw some minimal techno in there too

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (sixteen years ago) link

It's as if they don't want to give every artist under the sun this kind of enraptured attention, just young ladies. And being scalliwags ourselves, we assume the funniest and most logical reasons for this.

There is definitely a gender gap in the teenpop thread (there's an opposite gender gap on the hip-hop threads, indie threads, metal threads etc...gender balance is only close to perfect on the country thread!). However, we spend most of our time talking about ladies, but not nec. "young ladies"...Ashlee and Marit Larsen probably got more discussion last year (by a long shot) than, say, Miley Cyrus. Marit also put out the best album of last year without question, which explains better why we talked about her so much.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (sixteen years ago) link

when yr over 25 they're all "young ladies" dude

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (sixteen years ago) link

is r&b teenpop now? (xpost)

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (sixteen years ago) link

and wait, I thought we didn't want people to be dilettantes, so sticking to one genre should be good right?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:59 (sixteen years ago) link

could we form a blue-ribbon committee and get a report here?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:00 (sixteen years ago) link

yr not gonna get a lot of deviation based on "organic" songwriting, this one's from the heart blah blah blah

You hardly ever get this with Hilary Duff (case in point: her dance remix to "Come Clean" wipes the floor with the original more rock-based one). Her only successful foray into angst-rock so to speak is "Fly," which is weirdly sterile. I like it for its sterility, though.

Ashlee and Aly and AJ, on the other hand, do "organic songwriting" better than a lot of singer-songwriters! "Not This Year" is the best serious/sad Christmas novelty of the decade (at least), "I Am One of Them" about child kidnapping scares/frustrates the shit outta me.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:00 (sixteen years ago) link

homey i'm not even sure if you can read at this point

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:01 (sixteen years ago) link

we all love the simpsons, yes

hah to clarify i meant this a compliment of miccio's arguing style + challenging people to think

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:06 (sixteen years ago) link

and an observation of his snark

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:07 (sixteen years ago) link

i think jess' point about forced ecstasy in techno had to do with the aesthetic of chemicals and robots. which is different than the ecstasy of the mall, which is more stepford wives and you're not even getting some real attempt at nouveau-futurism to go along with it!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:13 (sixteen years ago) link

>>some people treat teenpoppers the way old-school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types but seem to not do it for anyone else with the same passion

who?

To be honest, this seemed like a criticism of Kogan more than anyone else, who writes about Ashlee Simpson in the same way he writes about Dylan or the New York Dolls, probing their lyrics and their images/personalities. But it's true, I've often wondered why he focuses on Brie Larsen or Miranda Lambert and doesn't apply the same critical skills to Green Day or LCD Soundsystem, too. Not to say that Green Day or LCD Soundsystem are more deserving, of course. And it's possible he writes about that stuff elsewhere and I just haven't seen it (someone did mention an Of Montreal review he did for PTW).

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:16 (sixteen years ago) link

could we form a blue-ribbon committee and get a report here?

Don't forget graphs and charts. Those are always good for a laugh.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:19 (sixteen years ago) link

I dunno – Frank's book is pretty eclectic. But anyway, why does Scott Fitzgerald write about rich people and debutantes? Why does Greil Marcus write about Sleater Kinney? It's what they KNOW.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:20 (sixteen years ago) link

But everyone knows about indie-rock, Alfred! The whole world knows about indie rock!

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:21 (sixteen years ago) link

"it's what they know"

but it's what they've chosen!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:23 (sixteen years ago) link

homey i'm not even sure if you can read at this point

(If this was at me, I thought yr point was that happy hardcore etc. was somehow similar to the Duffster in terms of "forced ecstasy.")

when yr over 25 they're all "young ladies" dude

Who's over 25?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:23 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, I guess I'm just curious what Frank is getting from teenpop that I'm only getting in small doses. I don't expect him to be passionate about other genres (and I'm really not just talking about indie rock here), just that if he was, then I wouldn't have cause to wonder.

Mike, no offense, but your sarcasm is getting tiresome.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:28 (sixteen years ago) link

75-80% of the people on this thread

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:28 (sixteen years ago) link

haha xpost

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:28 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm over 25! i'm 38. and just try explaining to people why you are traveling 3000 miles to read a paper about wolves and vikings and blood! see, now if it had been about the mall...

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:28 (sixteen years ago) link

OK, funny, because I just listened to "Beat of My Heart" and I kept thinking "this sort of sounds like 'Mr. Brightside' but defanged." The song's not horrible, but I don't hear a whole lot of character in Hilary's voice

where 'defanged' = 'feminised'? 'beat of my heart' is a very airy, light song; it's not about meaning anything, but it does convey a certain endearing...casting around for meaning, all the lines are very solid cliches of determination and resolve - "i'm not gonna drown", "i'm taking a stance", "i'll finish the deal" - but in combination, and because hilary never elaborates on any of them in the slightest, they have this questing feel to them. it's about growing up basically: "maybe if i act on...this thing that i've heard! or maybe that thing, or maybe that thing".

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:29 (sixteen years ago) link

also i think 'beat of my heart' is totally ecstatic! in that you feel blank as well as blissful on e

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:31 (sixteen years ago) link

the amount of purposeful obtuseness in this thread is staggering. is it like this on teenpop too?

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:31 (sixteen years ago) link

haha oh right this is why I don't read ilm anymore.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:31 (sixteen years ago) link

toodles!

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:33 (sixteen years ago) link

can I just mention how much I love the subject line this thread has happened underneath.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I guess my issue is often that the songs/singers being talked about just sound really feeble to me, no "pop transcendence" or big hooks or much of anything.

if you want proper vocal skillz and are annoyed when limited singers get kudos, go harsh on some indie thread's buzz! at least teenpop singers generally hit notes.

But it's true, I've often wondered why he focuses on Brie Larsen or Miranda Lambert and doesn't apply the same critical skills to Green Day or LCD Soundsystem, too. Not to say that Green Day or LCD Soundsystem are more deserving, of course.

well what are you saying then? why should frank write about green day or lcd soundsystem? (fwiw he's commented on lcds, on poptimists; i think his thoughts can be summed up as "meh")

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:35 (sixteen years ago) link

the amount of purposeful obtuseness in this thread is staggering

most of it is yours (though not as much as alex in baltimore)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:35 (sixteen years ago) link

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