Transport in London is shit

transport in London the UK is shit

For example, in Britain long-distance turn-up-and-go fully flexible day-return fares to the principal city (London) were 87% more expensive than in the next most expensive country surveyed - Germany.

This type of British fare was also more than three times as expensive than in the cheapest country surveyed - the Netherlands.

British annual season tickets for journeys of no more than 25 miles were 88% more expensive than the next most expensive country - France - and more than four times pricier than the cheapest country - Italy.

We should be rioting in the street or burning mainline stations to a cinder in protest.

train fares in my part of the world have gone up by about 80% in the last, ooh, six, seven years. Dunno how that's justifiable in terms that aren't nonsense. Also, why is cross-country train travel so amazingly expensive when not purchased months in advance? For example, when Southern Rail (or someone) made me miss a bus from London to Glasgow with their 50 minute late train, they agreed to pay for us to get a train from London to Glasgow instead. Three single tickets: £318. Who actually buys tickets at that price?

OK, can I just complain about this a moment?

I had to go to a job interview this morning, so I hopped on a 159 expecting to get to Central London in about an hour. There was a road diversion so that it took over HALF AN HOUR to get to Brixton (normally a 15 minute busride) - so I hopped off at Brixton and decided to take the tube because I needed to be there by 11am.

It was FOUR POUNDS for a single. FOUR POUNDS to travel from zone 2 to zone 1.

That is just COMPLETELY out of order. And don't go on about Oyster cards because I STILL live in an area where they STILL don't take Oyster cards on my local train.

FOUR POUNDS. FOUR EARTH POUNDS. FOR A SINGLE. FROM ZONE 2 TO ZONE 1.

I can remember when I moved back to the UK, a bloody travelcard for the DAY was not quite four pounds. How can inflation have gone up that much?

And don't go on about Oyster cards

hey how about you get an oyster card for, like, the bus and the tube?

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

OTM

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

Oh good - not this again...How much research does there need to be to prove it?

To repeat something upthread: It's people not complaining, and not comparing it to more modern transport systems, that's partly responsible for London's transport remaining shit.

International competitiveness studies always highlight the expense of transport, crumbling infrastructure, and historic lack of investment as a negative factor in London's economic position.

There's such a wide range of factors which differ between cities: climate, sprawl, population density, geography, layout, that I don't see how I can one can ever conduct meaningful research. Maybe other cities have better transport, but I'm still amazed *every single day* that this jumbled sprawling metropolis, the largest in Europe, is held together by a transport system which has got me from A to B every day since I've lived here somehow or other.

[I can feel myself going a bit Marcello about this - probably the long-term built up frustration of all those poor journeys - so please adjust following for any hyperbole]

For that matter, there's such diversity between countries that you might as well say we can never compare economies fully, so can never carry out meaningful research and know that the Zimbabwean economic system is worse than - for example - Denmark... We might as well pack up all attempts at comparison....

Please raise your expectations over what a city transport system can provide - if not for yourself, for everyone else because (I suspect) a lot of improvements are demand-led.

If we just continue accept the clapped out inefficient expensive 'system' we've got in a well-intended but misguided, mustn't grumble/had worse/blitz spirit/forelock tugging manner, it'll never improve.

It was FOUR POUNDS for a single. FOUR POUNDS to travel from zone 2 to zone 1.

Tourist tax, innit.

Also, the fact that you've just discovered this (it's been £4 for a non-oyster single for at least 2-3 years now) is actually a good thing!

clapped out inefficient expensive

Are there two different Londons? Ok the only other major city transport network I can really remember using is Paris. A single there: eur1.60. A single here: ukp1.60 (with oyster card). That's parity at the current exchange rate! And I would say London easily wins in terms of train frequency, and definitely in station coverage.

And the coverage and frequency of buses in central london is pretty fucking amazing imo. Single: £1 (with oyster). Seems cheap enough to me.

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:07 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otfm, and anyone who's tried to deal with one of these cunts or one of these cunts would have something real to complain about.

Last time I checked (and granted, it's been a long time since I checked) there was a £5 deposit to get an Oyster card. So I should pay £5 to lug around this extra piece of plastic that I can use once every 2 years?

But I know it's a losing battle trying to persuade people who live on Oyster lines that they're not god's gift to transport.

I just remember being in NYC earlier this year and being astonished by how much better the NYC subway was than the tube.

i.e. if you get to work without 12 of your actual services being cancelled EVERY WEEK you are doing well xp

obvs xp

how much better the NYC subway was than the tube.

in terms of what? (n.b. i don't tend to use transport at rush hour, i know the tube can get jammed. any other time i really don't know what people complain about.)

reliability mostly

Rush hour is rush hour (though it is true that LDN transport is more crowded), but it's delays and line closings that seem the real problem with the tube.

Closures, delays, trains actually turning up when they're supposed to... oh yeah, and if you compare cost - NYC is way cheaper, especially considering it's a one fare ride as far as you like system. Oh, and runs all night.

I mean, perhaps I'm just bitter because of my experience this morning - and also my experience yesterday of waiting 20 minutes for a connection to finally turn up, combined with the experience the previous day of being stranded for over an hour at East Croydon... this frustration just adds up. Especially considering that when I was commuting every day, 3 out of every 4 mornings I would experience some kind of delay.

Them's the breaks... I don't wanna downplay the experience of getting majorly delayed, or suggest that there isn't a problem at all, but called it 'clapped out' and 'inefficient' is wayyy over stating the case. Plus, they are working on this, right? What else are all the planned closures for.

Hang on, in what universe is three significant delays in THREE DAYS just "them's the breaks"?

That's a failure rate of 100%. I think that comes pretty clearly under the category of "shit".

Weren't two of them trains though? Not tfl. Trains are shit, well that's whole other story.

Also, failure rate of 100% for very small sample.

For various reasons, I've travelled in Europe a lot a while back - and I really resent denial over problems with London transport.

The first stage to recovery is acknowledging a problem.

The historical lack of investment is obvious and the problems it causes are obvious. Coverage is poor - e.g. large parts of South London aren't on the tube network.

Structural improvements/solutions such as Cross-Rail, and mooted tram schemes, are in an on/off stage for decades.

It shuts down early, it breaks down frequently, and it is expensive (try comparing monthly/yearly ticket costs with other world cities).

Plus have tried travelling at weekend recently?

It'd be such a relief if we could bring ourselves to acknowledge that it's shit.

Coverage is excellent in the middle of town - i.e. all the bits that most visitors think of as London. Cross rail is under development. Paris is cheaper for season tickets, yes, but not single journeys. Yes it would be nice if the tube opened later. I would argue that while there are problems, 'it' does not 'break down' 'frequently'. And yes there have been line closures at weekends, those are planned engineering works precisely to try and fix the problems with reliability.

The fact that for years every station has had a whiteboard at the turnstiles enumerating which lines have problems is kind of a red flag.

What about the fact that I get to where I want to go quickly and hassle free 99% of the time?

The historical lack of investment is obvious and the problems it causes are obvious

This is true. I'm not saying there are no problems. But the chicken little attitude does not chime with my experience at all.

I wonder if there's a complete mismatch in our expectations, or even what we're discussing?

You're talking about "the middle of town - i.e. all the bits that most visitors think of as London" - I'm talking about the wider London experience.

You're talking about cost of single journeys - I'm talking about the cost of using it as a day in, day out commuter.

I think visitors who stick to the centre of town have a very different experience from those who slog in to the centre day, in, day out.

Well I live at Waterloo so slogging in to the centre is not an issue, I'm already there. And I am kinda spoilt for choice with journey options, 4 lines and countless buses. I commuted on the tube for six months last year, and 9 months about uh 9 years ago, but I've never bought even a weekly travelcard. I do think it's crazy to say coverage is poor - in terms of stations it must be in the top five in the world?

yeah loads of stations for like theydon fucking bois

And the ten different stations in Ealing.

just partition london and be done with it

London transport is very idiosyncratic - generally fine, BUT subject to occasional and seemingly arbitrary fuck ups that will sabotage your entire day. Also there are certain seemingly straightforward routes that cannot be relied on at all if you have to be somewhere punctually, such as the number fucking 4.

Hey, Autumn Almanac, are the trams in Melbourne still basically free? Seemed to be when I was there for a bit four years ago...

Nah, they've stepped up patrols. So basically we have to pay for the broken service now.

i seriously cannot believe that anyone is defending the london public transport system omg! surely the best you can possibly say about it is that it exists and occasionally even works w/no delays or jams and gets you to places on time, but every other major city in the world that i've been to has a public transport system which puts london to shame.

that is insane, ldn transport is incredible...anyone complaining about it has never lived in another city

When I went to London it was shocking how much more efficient, effective, and functional (if not more expensive) than anywhere else I'd been (and what more in an enormous city that deals with enormous volumes of people).

As a little experiment, to see if opinions differ depending on where you live, I've made a collaborative Google map. Stick a red pin in if you think tfl is shit, or a green pin if you think it's great. If you are really unable to commit to either extreme I guess you could use a yellow pin.

Email me at tom dotttt ledger attt gmail dotttt com for an invite, once you're in you can invite other people too.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=106594618650848772292.0004636ab35215c6d1d70

Ledge, London is more than Zone 1.

It's a HELL of a lot more than Zone 1, and it's totally arrogant and elitist to judge the entire system on a tiny sliver of an experience that is totally unaffordable to the great majority of people that live in London.

The fact that we've been promised a tube for years, and STILL never got one (where are they sending our promised line? Oh yeah, to Clapham - because they're *so* short of train lines) - the fact that we STILL are not on the Oyster card system after how many years? And the fact that this is true of vast swathes of South London (sorry, we *are* London, even though lots of people would like to pretend otherwise) is indicative of MASSIVE FAIL.

The bus service in London is far better than that of any other city. The Tube has its problems, but is still pretty good IMO.

And problems with the rail service can be blamed on the ludicrous franchising schemes when the Tories broke up British Rail in the arly 90s.

It's true, the buses are pretty great.

In fact, rail in S London would do well to be given over to TFL- the former Silverlink line in N London has improved immeasurably since this happened last year.

And there is going to be a similar orbital rail link in S London, from Surrey Quays to Clapham, run by TFL:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7886008.stm

Whatever the problems with the Olympics, London travel will be significantly improved.

Do the buses in Birmingham still make you pay for your ticket by putting your coins into a dispenser that, in order to be more efficient, doesn't give change? That was always fun.

There's no lateral S London rail link extending into Lewisham, Bexley and beyond. Which has always irritated me a teeny bit. Everything, literally everything, passes through London Bridge/Charing Cross for us lot. Normally this isn't too much of a problem, to be fair.

lol Birmingham

I think the transport is fantastic, though shit if you live south of the river.
I also read an independent review a while ago that put our 'metro' system as the most cost effective/efficient considering its size and availability, and also considering the number of people that use it each day.

It's easy to complain but we actually have a very good underground network, consisting of one of the largest networks of stations, geographical coverage, number of lines and connections, speed, etc etc.

Ledge, London is more than Zone 1.

Noooo shiiiitttt

a tiny sliver of an experience that is totally unaffordable to the great majority of people that live in London.

I'm sorry I'll shut up and get back to stuffing my face with caviar in my five mill riverside penthouse suite.