Depression and what it's really like

to get away from the l.a. stuff for a while: i'm feeling pretty crappy, but it's not strictly depression. there's adhd and panic attacks, stuff i thought i had under control.

Joyce Carol Oates has been tweeting some weird thoughts on depression lately, such as these:

Joyce Carol Oates ‏@JoyceCarolOates 16h
Must be that "depression" is sold to credulous consumers who think that to be normal is to be "happy" all the time. Best cure Greek drama.
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Joyce Carol Oates ‏@JoyceCarolOates 16h
Immersion in Classic & Elizabethan literature great cure for solipsism of "depression" plus 300 pushups morning & 6-mile run evening.
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she's sort of insane on twitter

i say that with love, sort of

somebody with a Twitter account RT it back to her "Go fuck yourself" for me

eh, there was a minor kerfuffle recently over canon giles fraser saying something similar - contented old ppl don't understand that clinical depression is distinct from feeling a bit down, film at eleven.

I hate the idea that unhappiness is normal and ppl who try to take steps to relieve their suffering ate being duped, somehow. ssris are probably overprescribed but i'm not sure depression is. But my main point is that general unhappiness, even if it falls short of Depression, is still a problem ppl should address if they want to. I'm tired but i think i would relate this attitude to political conservatism ie "society is unfair. Poverty is inevitable, the strong exploit the weak, deal with it."

JCO's attitude abt ppl wanting to feel better, that is.

yup. all these coddled kids and their participation trophies are what's ruining society!

on the other hand exercise does feel pretty good

does it? or is a form of habitual masochism that has a residual benefit?

(i know it works for most people)

if you're approaching it as habitual masochism with a residual benefit than that's exactly what it's going to be, but it doesn't have to be.

yeah, i've been exercising regularly for years but I don't see how people make that jump from "beating the crap out of your body" to it somehow feeling good. long-term benefits, sure

i like exercise, it makes a big difference in my mood when i keep up with it, and it gets fun after a while. when i fall out of habit and try to get back into it, then it feels like masochism. it's no way in hell a cure-all, though.

also, i don't think there's anything wrong with a little bit of habitual masochism. i mean, it works for masochists.

but mainly i think of exercise as like giving myself the chance to a) express bottled-up feelings and b) have a good cry about them (sweat).

it's not a cure-all obviously and joyce carol oates pushups and 6 miles is whatever, just one thing of many that helps ime

i mean i've also been exercising fanatically and at my worst emotionally so

would've been more accurate if she had said "years of intensive psychotherapy and daily mental and emotional self-regulation", but i donut think she gets it. most people don't understand real depression unless they've had it, if they have had it then they wouldn't say shit like that unless they're in denial.

i read something about terry bradshaw's experience w/ depression and he was firmly in the "biological disease like diabetes" camp. i'm sure it's that way for some people, but depression has a bad stigma in our culture, so this stuff's disappointing but not surprising.

(terry bradshaw being an NFL player for non-American ILXors, using him as an example of the voice of the mainstream American man)

(Also for American ilxors fyi.)

i've leaned more and more towards the biological disease concept over time, a chronic ailment to be managed indefinitely with medication, mental and physical regulation, etc. as you mentioned

part of the reason i'm on the exercise tip at all

i think it's complex... and i don't think science understands it very well. if my depression were just treated like biology, i'd be on pills and not dealing with a lot of the root causes of it. go off the pills, root causes still there, depression's back, baby. good thing we're spending all this R&D on pills to cure us from eating too many cheeseburgers.

haha. yes, that's true, we're both a long way from the dark ages of psychiatry and yet still so far from a complete scientific understanding

i mean, not even nearly complete, there aren't consistent treatments or methods of diagnosis, even

More from JCO:

Joyce Carol Oates ‏@JoyceCarolOates 14 Aug
"Breaking Bad" also cure for depression: however miserable you think you are, Walter White & Jesse are more so. And more so. And more.

But then this -

Joyce Carol Oates ‏@JoyceCarolOates 14 Aug
There is serious clinical depression --& there is "depression" that seems sold to a consumer culture as cure for common malaise.

She has been getting some degree of backlash on Twitter for this, in terms of direct responses, though not as much as you would expect.

i find the "don't be depressed because there's always someone worse off" common bit to be particularly despicable, clearly she doesn't get it

Yeah, why is she complaining about depression sold to a consumer culture when Walter White and Jesse have so much more to complain about

didn't realize JCO was an evidence based mental health practitioner

Like most lay people, including me, JCO is not particularly good at distinguishing the nuances between sadness, melancholy, malaise, the blues, and such stuff, and depression. In ordinary life these terms are all kicked around as if they were more or less interchangeable. Which makes it confusing for her (and most of us) when we hear depression cited as a clinical diagnosis.

What's even more confusing is that so many physicians diagnose mental illness very poorly, and so many prescriptions for anti-depressants are written upon such flimsy diagnoses.

It's sad she has chosen to display her confusion so publically, while pretending it is wisdom rather than plain garden variety ignorance.

depression = suck it up, everyone's got stuff they're going through (oh, if only you knew...)

yeah i know sometimes when i'm feeling down, my wife will get a stern look and gesture to the TV and ask, "how can you act like this when pinkman's going through so much right now?"

who will tweet a link to various studies, adding 'science, bitch'

think my depression's flaring up pretty badly today. saturday is my brother's wedding. i really do not want to go ... my brother's twisted and cruel w/ me, and doesn't really care about me, and my whole fucked up family's going to be there. the family that taught me i'm a worthless piece of garbage and so lovingly treat me like they're entitled to take their shit out on. these lovely and wonderful people.

i feel like they're hunting me down now ... get about 5 calls a day from everyone wondering where i've gone. these people have never been in my life nor ever really cared about me, but it's ESSENTIAL! to project that we're such a happy and well-functioning family. frankly i think they can all go fuck themselves, but this situation makes me want to blow my brains out. hurrghhh.

don't do that

yeah, i'm not gonna, but this blows. there's really no way to win here.

What happens if you don't go?

make an appearance, dash early

xp i'll probably get a hundred emails calling me an asshole. worst case scenario some people will show up at my apartment. this family definitely has a "nobody gets out alive" mentality ... and, strangely enough, they're all abjectly miserable and their kids are getting fucked up, too. what a bunch of fools.

whatever. i need some air or something!

i'm in the wedding party so I think there's some important role for me. i have no idea what's going on or what i'm supposed to do. my car can't even make it up to where the thing even is. i'll figure out something.

try not to think about it too much - even if you can't get out of it, hopefully it won't last too long

Not having transport there seems like a good way out

I think you should skip it. Blowing off this wedding, risking your family's anger and disapproval, seems like it would be empowering as your family has been a major source of your struggles.

yeah, I think so, too ... breaking free over the stranglehold they've had on me. i feel like mafia enforcers are after me or something. i'm really not digging the effect this is having on my daily life.

on the other hand, I cut myself completely off from my family because of the anxiety from the memories, and that abnormal part of my life has become a new and hard to handle or explain source of stress and anxiety.

I recommend doing as many regular things like going to weddings and Thanksgiving as you can force yourself to do. It gets harder to start back up later. Lay low, fade into the background if you can, but try to show up.

maybe not advice for you, just my take on my life.

I hear that. I grew up dead alone, like ... literally completely alone, and I've made it this far. In fact, I've developed myself in the face of being completely alone. So, my family can go screw as far as I'm concerned, it would make utterly no difference in my life if they weren't around, and that's what they've earned out of me.

I'm sure they are still pretending to the world that everything about their family is fine and dandy, as normal as milk and cookies.

Spectrum, I think it would make a huge difference to your life if you'd cut the ties. You have said a lot here about all the damage and hurt they have done to you. Yet you are still within their circle. You say you don't want to go to the wedding, but deep down you know you probably will. Staying connected to them in this way kind of gives you - I won't say excuse, but - a 'reason' to stay angry at them. Staying in touch makes sure you have a channel to put your hurtthrough.

But it also seems like you - blaming your family for all the hurt they caused you, and rightfully so! - are contributing to this being a perpetual thing. You 'need' them to be able to express your hurt and anger towards them.

I'm fully on your side, that goes without saying I hope. What I have read from you here, you are incredibly strong to have made it so far, being the great person you are. I am not saying you need to cut the ties all together, but looking at why you are still I'm touch in the first place - seeing how you, basically, hate these people and how much they hurt you - deserves a closer look maybe.

Would cutting the ties really make you feel better? Or - this may sound perverse, but I don't mean it that way - do you in some way still 'need' them around simply because they are the object of your frustration, hurt and anger?

Xp

In any case, I wish you all the very best, I hope you know that I'm only trying to help and perhaps offer a different perspective.

aimless otm about illusions, that's really all it is. some even stroke their ego about "loving their family" even if it's complete horse crap. my dad used it growing up to cover his utter deviance.

thanks LBI. i dunno if I'm using it to channel my frustration and anger. this is all really new to me. in the past i stuck around because i thought i was completely powerless, they used mind games and manipulation, and I still desperately needed their love (being neglected like fuck messes up how you attach to people). this is some dark territory, so I'll leave it at that.