The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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what countries other than the US have the right to lethal weaponry in their constitution/social charter/whatevs?

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:28 (seventeen years ago) link

lol, sometimes in australia people indignantly quote their constitutional rights but it's the us constitution they are quoting.

― estela, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:32 (seventeen years ago) link

haha estela, so true. the australian community's almost total ignorance of the australian constitution is comical. but really it has nothing even approximating that (frightening imo) right to bear arms thing. it gives legislative power regarding defence to the federal govt, so i guess that would be who would make laws about militias and whatnot. pretty sure our gun laws are made by the federal legislature... though i suspect guns would fall within the 'dangerous goods' duty of each state's criminal code/law. even though guns are legal here, i gather their ownership and use is FAR more heavily regulated than in the US. i reckon we would sit somewhere between the UK and the US on this one. I have never ever seen a gun in australia that wasn't holstered to the hip of a policeman or licenced to a farmer to shoot kangaroos. i can't imagine anyone i know ever entertaining even the slightest notion of acquiring a fire arm due to some mentalist 'i must protect myself from the marauding hordes of burglars' hysteria. that stuff strikes me as utterly bizarre.

― gem, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:39 (seventeen years ago) link

it's a global religion, our constitution

― am0n, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:45 (seventeen years ago) link

"...due to some mentalist 'i must protect myself from the marauding hordes of burglars' hysteria"

What if I just wanted to own guns? What if I have a carry permit and never carry a gun? Why is this hard to understand?

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:50 (seventeen years ago) link

By the way, those marauding hordes do exist. In every city, in every district, they exist. I'm not saying you need to compile an arsenal to deal with the 'just in case,' but, shit, I'd rather have a gun than not, you know? I'm not telling you you have to have one.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't help feeling that a lot of what has the antis on this board all stirred up is that they have to confront the fact that not every gun owner conforms to their stereotype of what gun owner is

yes, as i said above: milo and river wolf, with their well-reasoned, intelligent posts, did make me question why i believe what i believe. thought-provoking debate, challenging points of view: it's at times like that i really love ILX.

you, however, seem to be the control case; the stereotype to out-stereotype all stereotypes. are you actually ted nugent or something?

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:53 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost - sorry dude, we obviously come from completely different cultural viewpoints, i'm afraid that a desire just 'to own guns' is completely beyond my sphere of comprehension. here i think the common view would be that any desire to own (and never use?) a weapon designed to kill living things just for the sake of it would be.... pretty unbalanced. i mean... what would be the point of that? what is aesthetically appealing about a lethal weapon? also you must have waaaaaaaay more crime in the US than we do, seriously, this paranoia about burglars is a bit bizarre to me.

― gem, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:54 (seventeen years ago) link

a weapon designed to kill living things just for the sake of it would be.... pretty unbalanced.

Yes, but why?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:56 (seventeen years ago) link

i'd rather stand in an airport in socks than wave a loaded gun around while wearing a bathrobe.

yeah but you gotta admit in the best of all worlds you'd get to do both at once

― Hans Rott, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:57 (seventeen years ago) link

i suppose because it just isn't the norm for people to own guns here unless they have a real use for them, like they're guarding an armoured truck or they make a career out of roo-shooting. we don't generally seem to have the same worship for them that americans do, though no doubt there are some australians that are right into collecting them or whatever. also they're really dangerous and lots of people get hurt by them accidentally as well as intentionally, the only times i really remember reading about gunshot deaths and injuries is when kids have gotten hold of them and accidentally shot each other, and when cops have shot people in circumstances that they shouldn't have. i just can't see australians enjoying collecting something like that for the sake of it.

― gem, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:00 (seventeen years ago) link

you, however, seem to be the control case; the stereotype to out-stereotype all stereotypes. are you actually ted nugent or something?

-- grimly fiendish, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:53 AM (5 minutes ago)

OK, now you've said this, explain it. What have I said that conforms to a 'stereotype' in your opinion? You don't know a thing about me.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, to be fair, he does know that you're a simplistic dipshit.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:02 (seventeen years ago) link

But go ahead, tell us more about your baffled, under-thought positions on politics and freedom, we're all really interested.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Wang Dang, Trace. I'm the only one answering questions and making points this morning. My opposition on this matter has been largely limited to 'you're a tool, roger' and 'you're a simplistic dipshit.'

At the end of the day, though, I'm not trying to change your mind. Personally, I couldn't care less how you feel about guns. It's enough knowing that you don't think I should have them, and I always, always will.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:07 (seventeen years ago) link

What have I said that conforms to a 'stereotype' in your opinion

pretty much everything?

the only thing i know about you is that you like guns. you really, really like guns. hellfire, you fucking love guns. you adore them. and you've got lots of them. and you're really good with them, and it's everyone else who's the problem. woah, you love guns. yes, sirree.

and if anyone dared interfere with your right to have all these guns, woah, you'd be cross. but you wouldn't, like, pull a gun on them, because you're the dude when it comes to guns. you're gun kid, woah yeah! guns guns guns, with a side order of guns.

did we mention guns?

still not sure why you like guns so much, right enough. or what day-to-day practical use they are to you. you've not really dealt with that.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:08 (seventeen years ago) link

If we could please just bring the conversation back around to eco-terrorism and taxation.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm sorry, grimly, I must've wandered into the Decsendents thread by mistake. I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss guns and gun control. What else would you like to know?

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:12 (seventeen years ago) link

listen the protocol is you ask three questions, we answer them, and you let us cross the bridge.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I'll bite, Manalishi. I haven't called you any names, though I'll admit to thinking you sound really crazy with the creepy fetishy-talk. My question is - if a much more strict process for acquiring a gun was introduced (similar to what was detailed above), and that process would surely save lives in the long run (the crimes of passion/murders we've been talking about), would you still oppose those changes on principle?

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Why should adults have to take a drivers tests? I don't know about you, Manalishii, but I believe in liberty over security.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:20 (seventeen years ago) link

What else would you like to know?

i'll bite too. without recourse to the constitution, or your god-given right to tool up, or any societal/non-personal factors at all: can you tell us why you personally, as an individual, want to have let alone one gun but many of the things?

- what do they add to your life?
- what need do they fulfil?
- what emotion or feeling or fulfilment do they provide you with that a hobby such as ... i dunno, flower-pressing or embroidery wouldn't?

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:26 (seventeen years ago) link

(i'm not, you'll note, calling into question your right to have the things. that's a given. i want to know the deeper reasons. lie back on the couch and talk to us.)

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm reluctant to give an inch, but common sense has to prevail now and again.

lol

― deej, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm from Massachusetts, never dealt with a gun in my life until maybe a month ago when I went to a shooting range in NH with a couple friends. None of us had really handled a gun at all and we wanted to understand what it was like.

We fired a Glock, a .44 Magnum revolver, an AK-47, and a fully automatic MP5. I got three things out of the experience:

1) In just under two hours, I went from being a little frightened to touch a Glock to comfortably handling an MP5. If you use your head handling a gun is easy and not a big deal at all.

2) That being said, I would never ever want to shoot anyone or be shot. Never. Can't emphasize that enough after ripping up a couple paper targets. Combined with the above point, I gained respect for guns while learning to not have a knee-jerk fear reaction to them.

3) I like loud noises, individual sports, and activities that require skill. I enjoyed the hell out of the range, and we all want to go back. It was a very relaxing activity in some sense--just you, the gun, and the target. If you like bowling or hitting golf balls it's kind of like that.

I don't know if I'd want to own a gun, and again I never, ever want to shoot a living thing, but I don't like the "please keep me away from guns forever 'cause they're scary" thing. Given that you can approach guns in a completely controlled environment, it's a pretty easy fear to deal with.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Whoa, one at a time, boys!

"if a much more strict process for acquiring a gun was introduced (similar to what was detailed above), and that process would surely save lives in the long run (the crimes of passion/murders we've been talking about), would you still oppose those changes on principle?"

What process, exactly, will 'surely save lives' in the long run? This claim is absurd and I can't answer such an abstract question. This goes well beyond 'principle'

**********************************************

Why should adults have to take a drivers tests?

Old ones.

*********************************************

- what do they add to your life?

Fun, security, aesthetics, piece of mind.

- what need do they fulfil?

Same question.

- what emotion or feeling or fulfilment do they provide you with that a hobby such as ... i dunno, flower-pressing or embroidery wouldn't?

To you it would probably fill the same kind of need, it quells the same desires, like record collecting, which is also a habit of mine. Now, at least, I think you are beginning to understand. Flower presisng wasn't really something I ever endeavored to do, but I appreciate the comparison nonetheless. If you think of it as a hobby maybe you'll be less inclined to throw insults around. Yes?

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Thank you call all destroyer. I agree with every point you make above. I also appreciate your intrepid quest to UNDERSTAND something you previously didn't, for better or worse. The rest of the board could learn a lot from you.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:41 (seventeen years ago) link

funny how you go from constitutional right to bear arms and only way to completely protect yourself to what if you just wanted to own guns and think of it as a hobby

― RJG, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:43 (seventeen years ago) link

i've never been able to figure out how to kill someone with a Superchunk 7 inch, but I'm sure there's a way

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:44 (seventeen years ago) link

play it again and again?

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:45 (seventeen years ago) link

funny how you go from constitutional right to bear arms and only way to completely protect yourself to what if you just wanted to own guns and think of it as a hobby

-- RJG, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:43 AM (1 minute ago)

well, common sense has to prevail now and again

― deej, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:46 (seventeen years ago) link

If you think of it as a hobby maybe you'll be less inclined to throw insults around. Yes?

yes and no. but thanks for your explanation, anyway.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link

why will nobody understand my aesthetic appreciation of sarin and semtex. bastards just break in to my house and parade me in my boxers.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:49 (seventeen years ago) link

My cousin thought up an interesting solution to the health care crisis. He suggested that we create a two-year program for licensed doctors who can perform most of the routine tasks that don't require the advanced skill of a surgeon, for example. He went further to suggest that we should be allowed to sign a contract to forfeit our right to sue for malpractice.

In theory, this could lower health care services. But the law does not allow for this and our liberty is curtailed.

Why can't I enter into a contract with anyone I choose to provide health care services? Why can't hang a shingle that says, "Feel Lucky? Fluffy Bear Open-Heart Surgery Clinic. Only $200." I'll be honest about my education and experience and anyone of sound mind who signs a contract with me will get a really great deal on heart surgery. Why can't I enter into this kind of a business arrangement with anyone I want to? Why will I go to jail, even if I have an impeccable record of successful surgeries and live, satisfied customers?

The fact is that, with regards to practicing surgery, my liberty is being curtailed by the state. Is this OK? Why?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:52 (seventeen years ago) link

RJG and deej - I'm just attempting to get through to you, since you seem so hell bent on arguing about it. I'm trying to approach this from an angle even a six year old might understand. How about...it's a hobby that is protected by the Constitution and shall not be infringed upon by PC commandos no matter what. Howzzat?

Conversely, all I know about most of YOU here this morning is that you're afraid of guns.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't help feeling that a lot of what has the antis on this board all stirred up is that they have to confront the fact that not every gun owner conforms to their stereotype of what gun owner is.

Manalishi, I pretty much admitted this was true w/r/t river wolf, who I like and have hung out with a bunch. But you do conform to my stereotype of what a gun owner is.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

it's a stupid hobby

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

eat me

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:54 (seventeen years ago) link

jaymc - maybe that's your problem and not mine.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

If it helps, I am also afraid of wild animals with big teeth and strong jaw muscles, spiked objects thrust towards my face, nuclear armageddon, and... a large proportion of the population being allowed to carry guns

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

every gun owner I've met in my life has been well-spoken and literate, so my personal stereotype is pretty far removed from Manalishi.

Manalishi is the stereotype that makes people afraid of guns and gun owners, because he's the kind of person who seems stoked about the prospect of killing somebody darker than him and getting away with it.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Manalishi, you should collected Precious Moments figurines, they've never killed anyone.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:57 (seventeen years ago) link

a new game. what can "it's a hobby" not be used to defend.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (seventeen years ago) link

To you it would probably fill the same kind of need, it quells the same desires, like record collecting, which is also a habit of mine. Now, at least, I think you are beginning to understand. Flower presisng wasn't really something I ever endeavored to do, but I appreciate the comparison nonetheless. If you think of it as a hobby maybe you'll be less inclined to throw insults around. Yes?

http://www.limitedweb.com/figurines/precious_moments.gif

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (seventeen years ago) link

the kind of person who seems stoked about the prospect of killing somebody darker than him and getting away with it.

Doesn't everyone dream of this? What, NO? Just...me, then, I guess. My fantasties usually involve a bare-handed chop to the windpipe, though, not so much firearms.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I really didn't come here with the intent of sticking up for Manalishi and I'm not much of a libertarian, but seriously what the fuck?

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

WHOA, that's one hefty claim, Tombot! Have you even READ this whole thread? Not that I'd blame you for skimming given the girth of this spectacle, but Jesus. That's a heavy trip to lay on someone you don't even know, Tombot. I seem 'stoked' to 'kill' somebody to you??

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

you can't kill people that way it has to be with a loaded .357

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.tcffayetteville.com/Precious.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

uh yeah Manalishi you do and you should seriously consider the tone of your rhetoric if you'd rather people not think that

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

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