privilege as a meme

hi, i'm a person who used to be a complete nightmare about *privilege* things, and then i got called out on it on the internet, and now i try to make sure i'm not like that anymore

and they weren't nice either. seriously if you can find truth in someone's point but choose to ignore it because they let emotion be a part in their argument you're an intransigent dinghole and you don't deserve kindness

you have a couple of choices

Except these aren't choices - doing one doesn't block you from the other.

xp zachlyon, that's the kind of fallacy that leads nowhere. If you decide that anyone who doesn't respond to hostility with humility is an intransigent dinghole then you're (1) ruling out any possibility of self-criticism in regard to your approach and (2) alienating people who would be broadly sympathetic to your views if approached in a different way. Of course it allows you to feel doubly righteous but it doesn't change anyone's mind - "I am right and they are beyond help" is both the easiest possible stance and the least productive.

if I am reading him correctly, zachlyon was talking about himself

I don't disagree with that per se--the reasonable anger felt by a lot of people over the relative intransigence of people who deny the reality of various kinds of privilege is part of the reason why I think people who benefit from a kind of privilege have a responsibility to take the lead in subverting it. For an honest and open conversation, sometimes a straight white guy is the best person to talk to another straight white guy about the how and why of straight white privilege.

xp

To me it's just basic psychology and basic politics: tailor your tone to your aims. If you straight up hate someone and just want to slam them then by all means give them both barrels but if, as these Twitter activists claim, you want to engage with potentially sympathetic left-wing commentators, you have to be more cunning about winning them round. I get why they're angry, they have every right to be angry - I'd just like to see them try avenues that have a better prospect of tackling the problems they're angry about.

And there are several writers who deal with privilege in a reasonable, persuasive way but in Britain, at least, this issue has caught fire on Twitter, where it's much easier to get heated and phrase a tweet in a way that sets the discussion spiralling down a more negative ad hominem path.

emotion does not necessarily imply hostility

and confrontation gets misread as hostility across racial lines all the time q.v. michelle "angry black FLOTUS" obama earlier this week

oh god don't get me started on that bullshit

Well there are so many different cases of course. Some are across racial lines, many aren't. Sometimes emotion gets misread as hostility, sometimes it's real, vicious hostility.

i don't know, man, for me suggesting that criticism needs to be moderate in tone to be effective seems like a bizarre way of coddling the very people who need to be shaken out of complacency

Yes.

And the reason a lot of (young, British) people reject the conciliatory approach is that they've seen what 13 years of friendly conciliatory left wing government ended up looking like.

sometimes hostility is warranted, and I say that as a massive proponent of the "shouting at people rarely makes them change their minds" school of thought

even nice, well-meaning people do things that warrant them getting yelled at from time to time, it's a part of life

I hear all of that but I've studied how this plays out in a lot of situations and I'd take a little tactical coddling over these go-nowhere shitstorms.

haha um I really hesitate to say this but perhaps you should, you know, check your privilege here

I do appreciate what you're saying DL, but I still switch round the 'tactical' and 'go-nowhere' in that equation.

Backing up Dan here. Nothing like politely objecting to someone's POV only to be told you're being ANGRY or your tone is all wrong.

Basically if you want to show me your privilege, and you want to convince me it looks exactly like a mandrill's arse on you, go ahead and prove it by asserting your inalienable right to determine what the tone of any argument should be, or that there's a place for me to be put in somehow, by you.

Later, we were on tour in Japan together and he was getting a LOT of attention for having blonde hair and blue eyes; stares, head turns, murmuring when we walked by etc, to the point where his frustrations boiled over and he blurted "God, I can't stand it here! I feel like everywhere I go, everyone is noticing me and staring at me!"

haha yes i get major schadenfreude vibes from white ppl's reaction to being really distinct in japan. I've never directly pulled a "do you see?" on anyone about it, but I have responded to "japanese people are sooo racist" sorts of stories with "you know, maybe you're just actually noticing it more, because, well?"

but as we've discussed elsewhere i have a bit of stockholm syndrome w/r/t feeling out of place, so.

xposts. i honestly don't like when people get too worked up over people being pigs and saying crummy things tho. not in the sense of that they're doing wrong, but that they're stressing themselves out, and that at least in the near term there will always be more of this stuff and being mad on the internet all day is not healthy (you have to pick and choose when you get mad), so like if you get worked up too often about too much, you're probably right, but maybe its not a good way to live, emotionally. what's wrong with immediately going HAM as opposed to a more distanced approach is really that the former takes too much work to keep up.

the issue is that a certain percentage of people are just bad people -- not only entitled but bitter, and uninterested in whether other people find their speech offensive or discriminatory. so when you focus on bad things said by individuals, sometimes you are going to antagonize these kinds of people and the discussion is not going to go anywhere productive, because these people don't care about being good people/citizens

Yeah but fuck those people.

Well, first of all, fuck those people, and second, I don't think they really exist in the numbers to make themselves the real problem. Unashamed racists, for instance, are not the only people perpetuating systematic inequality! Far-right religious nutjobs who complain on natl tv about women having JOBS and being allowed out of the kitchen are not the whole reason rape culture exists! If it was just the far-flung stuff, we could all laugh it off! That's the good news. The bad news is that the problem is actually everyone.

it's always a little weird to live in the activist bubble full time and then encounter someone actively antagonistic to ~anti-oppressive thinking~. it's like suddenly encountering marvin the martian, and then blinking and looking around and realizing that to varying degrees you're surrounded by marvin the martians

xposts those people are actually where going HAM makes the most sense. because maybe you'll never convince them to not be horrible, but you can basically convince them that their lives will be v. miserable if they don't stfu about certain things in certain places at least. (and obv for extreme trolls, moderation and banning).

and then of course "oh, don't you want to engage with me? you're anti-dialog! this is pc fascism" etc, to which the proper response is stfu.

good point. i think in high school and even college to an extent i would run into dead ends with conversations because some people - beyond "unashamed bigots" -- just don't want anything to change, or to have their worldviews questioned, and are hostile to the idea that something hateful like a rape joke on comedy central is, in fact, hateful. going HAM on them doesn't make sense because their trump card is "not really caring" and so they always succeeded in making me feel ridiculous. i haven't had this experience for a long time though, not since i started being more able to choose who i spend time with.

i think DL and zach are both right... expecting marginalized POC to talk abt privilege as dispassionately as privileged white people talk about everything is def major dinghole behaviour, OTOH some activists just seem like crazed haters & i think moreso than converting reddit types who spend all day arguing about it (who are a lost cause anyway) they miss out on just, like, normal ppl who are rolling their eyes at it all bc it looks like a clusterfuck. also in that OG privilege article quoted upthread it's framed as an educational problem; we're taught that they're oppressed but not that we're privileged--so i think a more didactic approach seems natural, rather than "you are racist" which is the angle ppl in my milieu seem to be going with.

having said all this, i don't think it's any of my business how people choose to talk about this stuff, and actually even tho there's that impulse to dismiss anything social media it's been pretty inspiring to see ppl getting in these debates more & more on a public forum, and it only started pretty recently so who knows what'll happen. maybe for every intransigent dinghole there are like ten people looking on in silence thinking "god what an asshole" or having their minds blown by a killer rant

also that quote hoos posted yesterday is pretty great re dingholes & former dingholes, i think it's important for former dingholes not to distance yourself from dingholes but smother them in your loving embrace & draw them in. like, i was actually really surprised at how receptive some old high school bro friends of mine were when i suggested they not use "gay" as a pejorative or use the word "fag." the most resistance was "but words have different meanings that change through time" but they were basically satisfied by "yeah but those meanings are old & homophobic, and if anything if the word changes through time it'll be to something more positive & thru gay ppl reappropriating it, not you shit-talking" & they were basically like "damn good point never thought of it that way"

even dingholes need love

one of the things that gets so tiring abt this to me is the way it immediately becomes a meta discourse, like its never "you are wrong, privilege caller-outer, and heres why i disagree," its always "stop participating in callout culture its ruining the discourse" or whatever

i believe thats whats known as "derailing"

also idk, its twitter! block at will, if people are "calling you out" and you dont think their claims have any merit. no one has to be all things to all factions of the left

OTM, but part of the problem is that a lot of left wing journalists are appalled by the suggestion that they might not speak for everyone on the left.

is that really a "problem"

maybe it is

Well it is if their response to criticism is to get all hurt about it instead of questioning their position.

if there is any value in privilege checking at all it is to stop people from thinking their own perspectives have universal validity

i think in the end, privilege discourse slots into my view of the unescapable solipsism of the human experience. that universalization from one's own experience onto others is difficult, and maybe inherently a fiction. that increasingly, as i get older, the only appropriate response is empathy. i know that's weird - to respond to the experiential silo with a tendency that maybe itself presumes the possibility of authentic connection; but i think there's probably a way to reconcile the two, a path that i dont have the energy to draw out right now.

in sum: empathy, peace god snapbacks & tattoos. bless

http://media.kickz.com/en/media/images/p/250/k1x-world_peace_snapback_cap-bone-1.jpg

It just took me 2 minutes of that song to figure out what snapbacks were. I was assuming they were, like, snappy come-backs?

left politics in the past has been such a minefield of egos and personality cults, i really wish that people of good will would think about that when engaged in politics now and try to adopt a conciliatory approach, including recognizing that being called on your privilege is generally not a witch hunt but an invitation to think about how we go forward

but i have responded to "japanese people are sooo racist" sorts of stories with "you know, maybe you're just actually noticing it more, because, well?"

tbh my fellow white folks' "japanese people are sooo racist" stories, as a class, are likely to get me into super angry check-your-privilege-mate mode, because white people in japan get treated significantly better than other foreigners.

aaaanyway for me "checking your privilege" is at its core a process of recognising that all individuals' positions/experiences/expectations are affected by their social and economic backgrounds, and that's… kind of always important? obviously people on the left use it as a blunt object against other people on the left but, newsflash, people on the left have always dumbed down concepts and used them as a blunt object against other people on the left.

when adam delved and eve span one of them was probably accusing the other of bad faith

i know, 'twas ever thus, it's disspiriting tho. i think the onus is on the non-egomaniacs to work right around anybody who's in it for the sectarianism tbh - you're either a broad coalition or you're fucked

xp-to-self (also the whole "japanese people are soooo racist" story is, as a story, usually pretty racist)

hah csm, i was trying to make the same point in the race/racism thread

See i retead treeship's post of 20:40 local time (sorry no c&p on phone lol) and imo it could as easily apply to ppl itt on either side of the debate, so if the outcome is 'fuck those ppl' fine, but fuck em all

i took lessons in tone at a prestigious public school, i don't think you guys have what it takes to shake me out of my complacency. this evening a friend&i were reflecting on our privilege, he said "i feel invincible" and i just nodded.

One of my best friends from college, a very liberal white private school dude, told me a story early on in our friendship about how he got into trouble at his boarding school for a map of the lunchroom he and his friends made where they called the table where all of the black kids sat "Africa", using as a defense that they had called their own table "Nerdville". I was pretty appalled and told him so and he didn't really get it.

but he was being self-deprecating, because white people are smart!

amazing