privilege as a meme

i've definitely been surprised at the sudden apparent abundance of people discussing privilege--i *did* hear it in college, and then it completely disappeared from my conversations and life until OWS started. now it's sort of ever-present.

(in my life, that is)

obv a privilege to not have to think about privilege, no yakov smirnoff

I think there's something of a generation gap here, too; the entire concept seems to have been mainstreamed to a point where ppl who were on college campuses ten years after I was were apparently tripping over it everywhere they turned, whereas I can't say I ever saw or heard about it as a codified concept until a few years ago (obv in practical terms, I have watched people struggle with the concept my entire life to the point where I was even talking about it using the term "privilege" on an ILX thread a few years ago completely unaware of the academic discourse around it).

Not only is there a generation gaps for sure but I also went to an usually white and conservative college. I think there was one "feminist" student group and I went to exactly one of their meetings and couldn't even figure out what they were about.

Also iirc the leader was a dude.

but WHO exactly is getting beat down all the time by "overly aggressive activists" and maybe if it keeps happening to you, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM?

Otm, but the way privilege generally manifests is as reassurances from the universe that your position on the situation in question is not even the 'right' one, but not even a position, just the way things are / what everyone knows.

I have definitely internalized "maybe I'm the problem" as a personal mantra. it is a blessing and a curse.

The idea that the great left wing project is being derailed by a handful of shouty twitter 'activists' seems pretty stupid tbh.

but usually, I am the problem, so it's mostly helpful. xpost

Radio Dispatch did a cute bit the other day about privilege as a pizza: if I get 6 pieces and you only get 2, but I don't even *know* how many you get, it just seems to me like this is how pizza works, this is what I've always gotten, it's inevitable. The day you reclaim just one piece, even though it's still 5-to-3, I'm going to have bad feelings about that.

pineapple chunks = fighting the kyriarchy

There were definitely discussions about examining privilege in the Sarah Lawrence of the '80s, but there were also occupations of administrative buildings to get more black history classes/faculty members led by students of colour. Being low-income enough to qualify for a full scholarship led to many, many discussions around fluctuations of class and the kinds of too-personal assumptions that all of us were capable of making.

Kyriarchy is a very useful word I wish I'd had at college.

just read this para in the awesome towards collective liberation which seems relevant. after quoting a set of replies men give to being accused of sexism--

"These comments are familiar, as I've made them and heard other men make them hundreds of times. And while it is tempting to distance myself from the men who made them, it's important that I remember the times when I've made those comments, too. That is, as a person who believes in movement building and collective liberation, it's crucial for me to connect with the people I'm organizing with. As a person with privilege organizing others with privilege--often white, straight males--that means learning to love myself enough to be able to see myself in people who I would much rather denounce and distance myself from. It also means being honest about my experiences, mistakes, and learning processes."

The idea that the great left wing project is being derailed by a handful of shouty twitter 'activists' seems pretty stupid tbh.

― oppet, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:54 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there is no great left-wing project, 'online activism' is just a series of individual interactions

basically DJP otm, idk about this thing with laurie penny but given the enormous history of mainstream 'face of feminism' feminists whitewashing women of color out of the history she deserves to be called out for whitewashng the history. it's possible to call a lefty activist out and still "contribute to the project" or w/e, but honestly if you're a woman of color fighting a battle of intersectionality, why is the action of calling out an influential and popular writer of whitewashing not allowed to be part of the "project"

The pizza analogy is interesting but should add that the guy who gets 6 slices just found out that a guy he went to school with gets 100 slices

lol "writer of whitewashing", meant "calling out for whitewashing" xp

hahaha I wondered about that

"usually your whitewashing is on point and accurate but in this case I feel you've misstepped"

The pizza analogy is interesting but should add that the guy who gets 6 slices just found out that a guy he went to school with gets 100 slices

Nah because this would be letting that guy make it all about him, again. He is having FEELINGS about not being as relatively wealthy as another greedier, more unfairly advantaged person! Conveniently it is then NEVER about the person getting 2 slices (or none). Just another derailing tactic.

I think that is the point President Keyes was attempting to make with that addition

xp It is possible that Laurie may not consider the internet as white as you do.

if you're a woman of color fighting a battle of intersectionality, why is the action of calling out an influential and popular writer of whitewashing not allowed to be part of the "project"

― ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:24 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think the tensions brought out by moments like this are necessary and useful rather than "a distraction" from "the real work," and i think people were right to call LP out for her notable omission, but i also know she's *does* know the history she's eliding, and that it's arguably irrelevant to the audience she was ostensibly trying to reach. that said, i think her valuable piece could have been even more valuable if it exposed more people to the thinking of the radical women of color that introduced privilege analysis into the lexicon

600 words, sure--10 of them would have done the job.

Having just read Penny's piece, I think this is the most objectionable part:

The conservative commentariat does not want to be asked to check its privilege – but it's time to take a lesson from the internet and listen for a change.

This does not at all jibe with my experience of the Internet in any form, going back through Usenet to the Prodigy message boards. In fact, I'd argue that the Internet is the LAST place to go to if you want people to listen to you unless you can find the enclave that already agrees with you.

(Obviously this says more about the Internet communities I have participated in than anything else. I would normally not make this addendum but it feels super wrong not to on the "privilege as a meme" thread.)

xp It is possible that Laurie may not consider the internet as white as you do.

― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:33 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

unless she's unearthing some long-lost angela davis e-zines from the 60s she'd still be entirely inaccurate

Guy with 6 slices loses his voice with nary a word of protest from ilx, check yr privilege everyone

does every thread have to be about pizza

The idea that the great left wing project is being derailed by a handful of shouty twitter 'activists' seems pretty stupid tbh.

― oppet, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:54 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there is no great left-wing project, 'online activism' is just a series of individual interactions

basically DJP otm, idk about this thing with laurie penny but given the enormous history of mainstream 'face of feminism' feminists whitewashing women of color out of the history she deserves to be called out for whitewashng the history. it's possible to call a lefty activist out and still "contribute to the project" or w/e, but honestly if you're a woman of color fighting a battle of intersectionality, why is the action of calling out an influential and popular writer of whitewashing not allowed to be part of the "project"

― ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:24 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol yeah I am in agreement with you. Laurie Penny is an absolutely hopeless journalist. I'm rmde at the people on her side of the argument who get in a massive froth about 'Twitter Anarchists' etc who have the temerity not to respect the left-liberal commentariat boooooo hiss.

by and large the ~left-liberal commentariat~ is not particularly worthy of respect, or at least it is certainly worthy of eye-rolling, but also "don't be a dick" remains #1 internet rule, & there's a point at which the whole "why should [twitter anarchists] respect [the commentariat]" question becomes so over-done that you wonder why either side pay so much attention to the other if they're so a priori awful.

idk about this thing with laurie penny

IDK. IDK. IDK.

the erasure of context from tumblr activism (a logical conclusion to tumblr's erasure of context from aesthetics, the reduction of cultures to a pretty screenshots) is SO FUCKING AWFUL and bad for thinking, activism, progressive solutions, everything. YOU DON'T KNOW THE CONTEXT. so why go off on that ranty paragraph?

'tumblr activism'

http://lucidstrike.tumblr.com/post/52272076345/bakuninja-maoismfightsback-teachers-are

we, as a species, deserve better from our tumblrs

is maoismfightsback the maoism version of my favorite tumblr hiphopfightsback

guys it's yahoo! activism

For me it's not about taking sides so much as recognising when things aren't working. There's a tendency for some activists to think that because they feel they are morally right they don't have to question whether their methods are productive or to think about the best way to get someone to consider their POV. It is easy to say that people under fire should separate out the reasonable critiques from the personal attacks but I'm sure that when you're the one looking at a Twitter @ column full of criticism it's a different matter and it's tempting to feel "fuck this". Often the call-out crew want an apology rather than a debate anyway, which is another thing guaranteed to make people pull up the drawbridge instead of engaging.

But because they are always right, any conflict must be the fault of the person (usually a prominent left-wing commentator) they are attacking and couldn't possibly be down to anything they've done. Sometimes, as with Suzanne Moore, they are justified in feeling that the commentator is too stubborn to listen, but I've seen them be just as vitriolic towards more conciliatory and sympathetic writers like LP or Owen Jones so no, in orbit, being attacked does not automatically mean that YOU'RE THE PROBLEM. Another thing I've noticed is that activists accuse the commentariat of closing ranks and backing each other come what may (sometimes true, often not) while behaving in a very similar way. Activism can be a self-reinforcing bubble too.

I actually think that Laurie, as well as being a much better writer and thinker than she was two years ago, is one of the most punishingly self-critical, ready-to-listen members of the "commentariat", if that's what you want to call it, and not someone who uses the behaviour of more hostile activists as an excuse to brush aside the issues.

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Yoga flame

for all time

for great social justice

i feel like this whole privilege conversation is just victim behavior. nobody gives a fuck that they're privileged, and if they're open to being educated about it then chances are they're the type of people who don't need to be educated about it in the first place. go out and fight for your equal rights, cuz these "privileged" people aren't making the decisions that affect your life, and they don't give a shit, either. it's a hell of a lot easier to find people to vent your anger on, but it's going to accomplish nothing.

sincerely, privileged fuck.

He's right in a way, the only way to accomplish anything is to organize and gain political power (whether through official or unofficial channels). Ultimately privilege awareness is a good thing but it doesn't get you far to prevail upon the privileged to check their privilege. Few people really want to voluntarily give up what they have.

But this isn't check like your coat - checking your privilege doesn't lose you shit (except the opportunity to run one's mouth)

Neither does stopping to listen to the moonies but yknow fuck that an all

xp so what's the goal there, universal respect? i'm a straight white dude and I don't even have that. seems like a pointless attempt to rewrite human fault. there were people who tried that already ... Jesus, Buddha, and a whole assortment of crazy characters. and the dude firing a shotgun at an Obama effigy probably isn't going to listen anyway.

i feel like this whole privilege conversation is just victim behavior.

inflammatory, stupid

'victim behavior'

why not? you have a couple of choices. 1) get off your ass and do something to right your wrongs. 2) bitch and moan to random people that their perspective is wrong. If victorious, you've enlightened someone who has absolutely zero bearing on your life or the lives of the people you're fighting for. Congratulations!

imo a v simple way to think about it is that if one of the major points of leftist politics is to make the voices of the least fortunate and most oppressed heard then you're not doing very well at leftist politics if you're operating in a way that will still result in those voices going unheard.

If victorious, you've enlightened someone who has absolutely zero bearing on your life or the lives of the people you're fighting for.

This is a really strange view of society/the world. How do you think public opinion actually works, exactly?

I'm coming from the perspective of having some experience in politics.