privilege as a meme

and 'i only had 600 words' was a p reasonable defense

There is probably an interesting article to be written about the way privilege changed from something that was discussed in the 60s to something that was checked on the internet 50 years later, and the sense in which Louise Mensch would probably see the concepts as coming from the internet, but yeah as you say 600 words.

so many of these twitter activists are such dicks about their activism. whenever a privilege-denier whines that "check your privilege" is being used as a personal attack on them, whether it's because they're naive or pig-headed or dumb, it still feels like i have to acknowledge that yes, that does happen, and those people are completely misusing the concept because they are awful people

lol privilege-denier

oh fuck off mordy

I agree with Lex - intersectionality cuts all sorts of ways and it's unwise for a 'serious' activist to trumpet how shallow they are by relying on either skin-deep judgements or some other form of whataboutery that they'd decry from a right-wing, privilege-denying asshole.

lex otm. It's a shame that privilege-checking, a valid, important, easy to grasp concept, has been ruined in many people's minds by a small hardcore of hyper-aggressive Twitter activists who spend all their time "calling out" prominent left-leaning writers for minor blunders or omissions.

I pretty much avoid these extended firestorms like the plague because life is too short but just to make sure we're all on the same page; "pretending people of color don't exist" is not considered to be a minor blunder or omission, right?

If you're alluding to Girlsgate, I don't want to rehash it here but nobody was "pretending people of color don't exist".

I don't actually know what Girlsgate is.

Oh wait, do you mean the HBO show "Girls"? lol no, I know the difference between "ignoring" and "omitting".

also feel quite strongly because those people hijack the argument so that it's about whether some people are aggressive on the internet when it should be about privilege itself - not whether it exists but how it affects us, the multiplicity of its manifestations, how to combat it and call it out etc

xp Oh, OK, what do you mean then?

girlsgate could be a cool kinda chastity belt.

These vicious Twitterstorms are like the handful of window-smashers at an otherwise peaceful demo - the aggro sucks up all the oxygen and the cause that we should be discussing gets shoved to the side. People who don't follow this stuff closely come across a concept like "check your privilege" via the worst possible advocates for it and think, oh, it's just something that angry trolls bang on about.

I have no specific examples because, as I said, I try to avoid these fights. When they do pop up on my radar, the most common iteration I notice is people of color (usually women) saying "wtf we have voices too" which I think is an entirely reasonable reaction and I was wondering how large this blanket condemnation of internecine fighting is supposed to be.

xp They should still be able to think actual thoughts, though, and when they do stumble across a substantial explanation for privilege and how it works, the responsibility still rests on them to think, Oh hey! Those people got it all wrong! instead of LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM whenever it comes up.

also feel quite strongly because those people hijack the argument so that it's about whether some people are aggressive on the internet when it should be about privilege itself - not whether it exists but how it affects us, the multiplicity of its manifestations, how to combat it and call it out etc

― lex pretend, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:17 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

booming post

in orbit otm - when i get pissy about the aggressive activists who hijack the term rest assured i feel equally pissy about the people who use them as an excuse for Not Getting It and defending their own poor conduct (poor conduct that is not ill-intentioned still being poor conduct)

it made me feel a bit ill to see notionally left-wing people agree with that fucking louise mensch article

I've never had anyone tell me to check my privilege, and I can 100% guarantee you that I've deserved it a lot of times, so maybe I don't hang out with enough activists or maybe it's because I didn't go to college at a time and place where that kind of talk happened, but WHO exactly is getting beat down all the time by "overly aggressive activists" and maybe if it keeps happening to you, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM?

usually other activists.

In left-on-left girlbusiness it's often the 'perfect' being the enemy of the good.

Oh, well, okay. Anyway, lex being right, as usual.

i've definitely been surprised at the sudden apparent abundance of people discussing privilege--i *did* hear it in college, and then it completely disappeared from my conversations and life until OWS started. now it's sort of ever-present.

(in my life, that is)

obv a privilege to not have to think about privilege, no yakov smirnoff

I think there's something of a generation gap here, too; the entire concept seems to have been mainstreamed to a point where ppl who were on college campuses ten years after I was were apparently tripping over it everywhere they turned, whereas I can't say I ever saw or heard about it as a codified concept until a few years ago (obv in practical terms, I have watched people struggle with the concept my entire life to the point where I was even talking about it using the term "privilege" on an ILX thread a few years ago completely unaware of the academic discourse around it).

Not only is there a generation gaps for sure but I also went to an usually white and conservative college. I think there was one "feminist" student group and I went to exactly one of their meetings and couldn't even figure out what they were about.

Also iirc the leader was a dude.

but WHO exactly is getting beat down all the time by "overly aggressive activists" and maybe if it keeps happening to you, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM?

Otm, but the way privilege generally manifests is as reassurances from the universe that your position on the situation in question is not even the 'right' one, but not even a position, just the way things are / what everyone knows.

I have definitely internalized "maybe I'm the problem" as a personal mantra. it is a blessing and a curse.

The idea that the great left wing project is being derailed by a handful of shouty twitter 'activists' seems pretty stupid tbh.

but usually, I am the problem, so it's mostly helpful. xpost

Radio Dispatch did a cute bit the other day about privilege as a pizza: if I get 6 pieces and you only get 2, but I don't even *know* how many you get, it just seems to me like this is how pizza works, this is what I've always gotten, it's inevitable. The day you reclaim just one piece, even though it's still 5-to-3, I'm going to have bad feelings about that.

pineapple chunks = fighting the kyriarchy

There were definitely discussions about examining privilege in the Sarah Lawrence of the '80s, but there were also occupations of administrative buildings to get more black history classes/faculty members led by students of colour. Being low-income enough to qualify for a full scholarship led to many, many discussions around fluctuations of class and the kinds of too-personal assumptions that all of us were capable of making.

Kyriarchy is a very useful word I wish I'd had at college.

just read this para in the awesome towards collective liberation which seems relevant. after quoting a set of replies men give to being accused of sexism--

"These comments are familiar, as I've made them and heard other men make them hundreds of times. And while it is tempting to distance myself from the men who made them, it's important that I remember the times when I've made those comments, too. That is, as a person who believes in movement building and collective liberation, it's crucial for me to connect with the people I'm organizing with. As a person with privilege organizing others with privilege--often white, straight males--that means learning to love myself enough to be able to see myself in people who I would much rather denounce and distance myself from. It also means being honest about my experiences, mistakes, and learning processes."

The idea that the great left wing project is being derailed by a handful of shouty twitter 'activists' seems pretty stupid tbh.

― oppet, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:54 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there is no great left-wing project, 'online activism' is just a series of individual interactions

basically DJP otm, idk about this thing with laurie penny but given the enormous history of mainstream 'face of feminism' feminists whitewashing women of color out of the history she deserves to be called out for whitewashng the history. it's possible to call a lefty activist out and still "contribute to the project" or w/e, but honestly if you're a woman of color fighting a battle of intersectionality, why is the action of calling out an influential and popular writer of whitewashing not allowed to be part of the "project"

The pizza analogy is interesting but should add that the guy who gets 6 slices just found out that a guy he went to school with gets 100 slices

lol "writer of whitewashing", meant "calling out for whitewashing" xp

hahaha I wondered about that

"usually your whitewashing is on point and accurate but in this case I feel you've misstepped"

The pizza analogy is interesting but should add that the guy who gets 6 slices just found out that a guy he went to school with gets 100 slices

Nah because this would be letting that guy make it all about him, again. He is having FEELINGS about not being as relatively wealthy as another greedier, more unfairly advantaged person! Conveniently it is then NEVER about the person getting 2 slices (or none). Just another derailing tactic.

I think that is the point President Keyes was attempting to make with that addition

xp It is possible that Laurie may not consider the internet as white as you do.

if you're a woman of color fighting a battle of intersectionality, why is the action of calling out an influential and popular writer of whitewashing not allowed to be part of the "project"

― ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:24 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think the tensions brought out by moments like this are necessary and useful rather than "a distraction" from "the real work," and i think people were right to call LP out for her notable omission, but i also know she's *does* know the history she's eliding, and that it's arguably irrelevant to the audience she was ostensibly trying to reach. that said, i think her valuable piece could have been even more valuable if it exposed more people to the thinking of the radical women of color that introduced privilege analysis into the lexicon

600 words, sure--10 of them would have done the job.

Having just read Penny's piece, I think this is the most objectionable part:

The conservative commentariat does not want to be asked to check its privilege – but it's time to take a lesson from the internet and listen for a change.

This does not at all jibe with my experience of the Internet in any form, going back through Usenet to the Prodigy message boards. In fact, I'd argue that the Internet is the LAST place to go to if you want people to listen to you unless you can find the enclave that already agrees with you.

(Obviously this says more about the Internet communities I have participated in than anything else. I would normally not make this addendum but it feels super wrong not to on the "privilege as a meme" thread.)

xp It is possible that Laurie may not consider the internet as white as you do.

― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:33 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

unless she's unearthing some long-lost angela davis e-zines from the 60s she'd still be entirely inaccurate

Guy with 6 slices loses his voice with nary a word of protest from ilx, check yr privilege everyone