Suede

Re-listened to this earlier, 'Always' has grown on me a fuckload!

The 'Dog Man Star'/Floyd breakdown is one of their best moments

I've always kinda scorned the box-set business, but I got an email about this Suede vinyl set and I felt some weird old-man thrill at the thought of owning Head Music, New Morning and Sci-fi Lullabies on vinyl (plus the ones I've already got). Yeah, I'll give them £130.

If I could afford that right now, I would damn well be buying it, even if playing Head Music on vinyl isn't going to make 'Asbestos' sound any better.

"Bloodsports" is sounding better than ever right now.

listening to Dog Man Star again - Christ that record is nearly perfect

― not feeling those lighters (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, March 23, 2013 11:34 AM (10 months ago)

It really is

Suede are playing the whole of Dog Man Star on March 30 at the Royal Albert Hall for Teenage Cancer Trust, but I think tickets sold out pretty quickly.

Well I live in America and don't have a passport, so it's totally moot

OK, I'll tell them to cancel.

Lol Thx!

seconded

it would have been great if bernard had joined...

Yeah that would be cool, but I suppose since they're keeping on going, and looking to record another new album, it might be kind of awkward. I always feel sorry for Richard Oakes - he must really get sick of hearing about BB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eswQl-hcvU0

yeah, he's been in the band for 20y but he's always been and we always remain a substitute... tough.
but that's for he signed for, huh !
I remember an interview of bernard getting mad because they hired a puppet to replace him.
thing is, rihard didn't make things easier by playing the same guitars and having the same stage moves (at least for a while).

Yeah, exact same moves - shaking his hair, stomping his foot etc. Beautiful Ones was a great riff but other than that, though post-BB Suede have loads of great songs, I can't really think of any amazing guitar bits.

thinking of it, it must have been really weird/ridiculous, even for the others in the band. maybe brett should have told him to get his own style for his own sake !

and yeah, the songwriting and production became less structured around guitars after bernard.

I think Oakes has gone on record saying he's not particularly into guitar solos.

it's not really about guitar solos (although bernard had awesome ones) but the riffs and structure of the songs.

yeah, he's been in the band for 20y but he's always been and we always remain a substitute... tough.

― AlXTC from Paris, Wednesday, February 5, 2014 3:04 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Depends on the way you perceive it. I love Butler-era Suede as much anyone that loves Butler-era Suede, but I view that Coming Up era line-up as no less "Suede" than what came before. Of course Oakes was clearly influenced by Butler, it's why he got the job: it kinda helps when you have to perform the older material live. When it comes to the composition side of things, though, Oakes has his own melodic sense, which of course comes naturally from not being Bernard Butler.

Suede became less structured around guitars after Butler left not because of Oakes, but because of Neil Codling. If I recall, Oakes would rather have had Head Music be a guitar-based record, but Brett was keen to make a more electronic influenced record and wanted to involve Neil in the songwriting process more (with him being the keyboard player and all).

I agree with you mostly. After bernard left and considering richard had obviously less talent/vision than his predecessor, it was the best choice to try and go another direction...

anyway, with this thread and the 20th anniversary of DMS, I listened to it again and it is truely as great as ever... if not more ! I had shivers during "asphalt world" this morning.
even "black or blue" which I had never liked is enjoyable now. it has a debussy atmopshere. that and the ravel influence of the end of "still life" show an early 20s french aspect I had never noticed !
I also found interesting the fact that you find the brass and string parts at various moments during the album (from "pigs" to "black or "blue") before they all come back during the final of "still life".
the only song I don't find interesting or useful is "the power".

There was an interview with Brett just before DMS was released, and he said that "The Power" was the one song on DMS that was recorded after Bernard left, which is why it's lighter and breezier than anything else on the album. It's almost like a preview for "Coming Up", but they hadn't figured out what kind of band they were going to be yet post-Bernard.

I personally think Suede could have easily churned out Coming Up-like albums with that line-up until the end of time, but I think Brett started to change Suede's direction not because of Oakes' "relative lack of talent", but just because he wanted to try something different and had the resources to do so. Drugs, of course, also may have had something to do with it.

You've got to realise the circumstances with Butler and Oakes were very different: Butler was able to hone his craft and his guitar playing skills for a good while before Suede started to take off, whereas Oakes was basically forced into songwriting and playing to loads of people without having to "pay his dues" (for want of a better term). The fact that Oakes managed to come up with the music for 'Together' and 'Bentswood Boys' without having much of a background in composing music at that point is something I find very admirable, and there are plenty of Suede fans that still rate those tracks. So yeah, Oakes may not have been quite the "visionary" that Butler was, but he clearly had the talent to pull it off when he wanted to.

yeah, it's nice and all but I have never really liked it. and you clearly hear that bernard is not on it since the arrangements and guitar parts are way too simple. it should clearly have been left out as a b-side.

There was an interview with Brett just before DMS was released, and he said that "The Power" was the one song on DMS that was recorded after Bernard left, which is why it's lighter and breezier than anything else on the album. It's almost like a preview for "Coming Up", but they hadn't figured out what kind of band they were going to be yet post-Bernard.

― NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:50 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hmm. I don't know about 'The Power' sounding like a preview for Coming Up... personally, I find 'The Power' breezier than anything from Coming Up. It's definitely too breezy for Dog Man Star, in my opinion. If anything, I find 'The Power' reminds me of stuff like 'Lost In TV' from A New Morning

xpost
oh absolutely, I'm not denying the qualities and merits of richard. he did what he could and it was very good already.
as for the change of direction, I mean it's because brett didn't have a counterpart as heavy as bernard that he could (or had to) change.

I remember their first public performance EVER with richard. it was for a radio session in Paris and they had just recruited him.
I was so jealous because he was roughly my age and I was such a bernard fan !

If 'The Power' had been left off Dog Man Star, I wouldn't have complained. Especially with them having songs like 'Killing Of A Flash Boy' lying around, but I suppose if 'Killing Of A Flash Boy' had made it into Dog Man Star it would have been mixed with the same amount of excessive reverb as the rest of the album, and it would have spoiled the track.

they could have added another track ("flashboy", "dark star"...) or just leave the album with one less track.
I guess they fellt like it could be a single and they needed more single material from the album...

Yeah... it definitely sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the album. I mean, even if I didn't know that Bernard wasn't on it and that it was recorded after he left, it has a very different feel from the rest of the material on there.

what were the singles from DMS : "pigs", "power" and "generation", right ?

oh and "wild ones" of course !

I saw Suede in 1997 and the setlist suggested that for the most part, they were keen to move on from the Butler era as much as they could reasonably get away with. https://www.songkick.com/images/1988626

In the Love & Poison book, it's mentioned how the band and Buller were keen to try and be contrary to what Butler would do and I guess Brett wanted to continue distancing themselves from the initial 'Classic Suede' sound, which resulted in 'Head Music' and disastrously with 'A New Morning' and 'Love The Way You Love', before admitting defeat. Anyone who's heard 'Bloodsports' can muster a guess as to what Brett might have been thinking would be the most appropriate sound to return with...

^ during the Coming Up sessions, that is

xxpost:

'We Are The Pigs', 'The Wild Ones' and 'New Generation'.

Apparently, 'The Power' was officially supposed to be the fourth single on May 1st 1995 but it was pulled. Saul Galpern had the band record some potential B-sides for 'The Power' in LA, and the band came up with 'Sam' and 'Have You Ever Been This Low?' for this purpose. According to the Love and Poison book, Brett was convinced that Galpern had no intention of ever releasing 'The Power' as a single, and wanted to see if the band could come up with a "potential A-side" track like 'Together' so he had something new to release as a single instead, and because neither 'Sam' or 'Have You Ever Been This Low?' were potential singles, Galpern pulled 'The Power' from release.

The Power does sound lighter than other stuff on DMS. However, even though it was finished after Bernard left, this involved a session guitarist recreating Bernard's parts from the demo, so it's likely it would have sounded similar even if he had stayed - i.e. the relative lightness was intended from the start.

I bought the Suede vinyl box set a few months ago and it comes with a (great) book containing interviews with the band (including Bernard) covering every single song. I will look up what they have to say about DMS later and post some of the best trivia.

You've got to realise the circumstances with Butler and Oakes were very different: Butler was able to hone his craft and his guitar playing skills for a good while before Suede started to take off, whereas Oakes was basically forced into songwriting and playing to loads of people without having to "pay his dues" (for want of a better term)

I guess I dislike the assumptions you're making about craft and instinct? The first two Suede albums are their best, but Anderson and Oakes coming up with "Trash," "Filmstar," "Saturday Night," and "Beautiful Ones" suggest Oakes had no need to hone any craft: he had plenty already. Unless we've got info that those credits were gestures of generosity (<i>Coming Up</i> does boast Anderson's first solo songwriting credits)?

Yeah, "The Power" is a nice break from all the heaviness around it on DMS, but at the same time I wouldn't miss it if it was dropped from the album altogether.

The Power does sound lighter than other stuff on DMS. However, even though it was finished after Bernard left, this involved a session guitarist recreating Bernard's parts from the demo, so it's likely it would have sounded similar even if he had stayed - i.e. the relative lightness was intended from the start.

I bought the Suede vinyl box set a few months ago and it comes with a (great) book containing interviews with the band (including Bernard) covering every single song. I will look up what they have to say about DMS later and post some of the best trivia.

oh ! that'd be great !
I suppose you can't have the book without the boxset...

As for "power", maybe it replicates the demo but I really have a hard time imagining the final song would have sounded like that with bernard. there's not another Suede song from his era with such basic guitar parts. just the opening acoustic guitar strumming is almost opposite to his conception of guitar playing !

xxpost
funny I was wondering if it's possible that brett would have credited richard with some songwriting to give him some confidence and strenghthen the band.

The Power is one of the songs that Brett would have taken off (along with Black and Blue) to make room for some of the B-Sides according to those reissues. He would have put Killing of a Flashboy, My Dark Star and The Living Dead on there instead. Those are obviously the better songs but I love Dog Man Star as it is.

It's interesting that the record company were desperate for them to change We Are the Pigs as the lead single from DMS wanting to go with New Generation instead. I love that they went Pigs as they wanted it to be this big statement, I think they were absolutely right to do that. They always seemed to have some kind of issues with their lead singles though. They always seemed to put out the more obvious hit (or the song the record company would have chosen) as the second single. On A New Morning there choice obviously cost them the success of the album.

It's been said millions of times already but I'm still impressed that they released this crazy album, being one of the hottest bands on the planet at the time, as a follow up to their smash hit debut album. so gutsy (or suicidal) !
I guess MGMT did something similar (although I've never heard their 2nd album). are there other examples ?

de la soul is dead?

except they had their biggest hit (ring ring ring) on de la soul is dead, no ?

Rid of Me.

Six by Mansun?

I guess I dislike the assumptions you're making about craft and instinct? The first two Suede albums are their best, but Anderson and Oakes coming up with "Trash," "Filmstar," "Saturday Night," and "Beautiful Ones" suggest Oakes had no need to hone any craft: he had plenty already.

Well, yeah, that's what I was saying. I was defending Oakes, not slighting him.

funny I was wondering if it's possible that brett would have credited richard with some songwriting to give him some confidence and strenghthen the band.

― AlXTC from Paris, Thursday, February 6, 2014 2:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The way the Anderson/Oakes partnership worked was wildly different from the way Anderson/Butler worked. When Bernard was in the band, Bernard would write and demo the whole chord structure of the song in its entirety, and then give it to Brett so he could work out a melody line and a set of lyrics to go with it. When Bernard wrote the music, it would often not change when Anderson got involved to write his part; the exception being the tracks on Dog Man Star which were edited down when Bernard left the band.

With Richard Oakes, it was different and far more flexible. For example, when Richard wrote the music to 'Together', the verse was originally the chorus and the chorus was originally the verse, and Brett made the decision to swap them around. A lot of the Anderson/Oakes Coming Up tracks were written in the same room together as a collaboration, whereas Anderson/Butler worked separately. On that album, Brett would often get an idea for the melody line first and then he'd go around to see Richard Oakes and work out the chord structure around the melody line, passing ideas backwards and forwards and adding bits/junking bits that didn't work until they completed the song.

yeah, I can totally see these two different ways of working. the main thing, for me, is that with richard, I suppose it was brett who had the upper hand and final word whereas with bernard the "power" (ah !) was more balanced (although brett was also older than bernard and recruited him by classified ad).
I think richard was more a collaborator than a songwriting partner. I don't know if this makes sense !