Depression and what it's really like

I guess the relation to this thread would be this -- such labels can be prescriptive in a destructive way and a lot of life is determining that /everyone/ has the potential to be gifted or weird or an outsider in their interests and exploits and this isn't something that separates you from others.

hey contenderizer, that's a good point. i know my therapist is right to some degree, but this shit is so friggin complex it's really hard to deal with casually. i think i need to take a breather and really consider everything in an easier state of mind. like, put it on the backburner until I can get some chill time. trying to parse this stuff at work isn't really helpful. and i totally relate to what you're saying, so you're not alone.

i unno mh. the label didn't affect me much other than being aware people thought i was 'smart'. i brought it up because it involves way different things than just interests, exploits, achievements, etc. i sorta regret even bringing it up, it's a loaded issue because there's so much social status baggage behind things like that. i know i'll work it all out.

that's cool

it sure made me feel like I was a failure if I didn't immediately grasp all things

:{ sorry, i wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything. i feel like a butt now.

oh, no! I was trying to relate a bit but we all have our own problems to carry around. don't feel burdened by anyone else's. * thumbs up *

oooooh, ok. just assumed i was being an ass for some reason and totally misread it. reading it the other way, i feel the same way, too.

fuck i need to chill the hell out! thank god the weekend's almost here.

now i get what my therapist was saying. damn therapy can be hard. :S

hey, spectrum. it's really unfortunate that your therapist gave you that Louise H4y CD, bcz it really undermined your trust in her judgement, and loss of trust is kind of a 'game over' situation. it throws a shadow of doubt on everything she says going forward, at which point you're mostly thrown back on your own ability to sort things and her utility as a guide and assistant is greatly diminished.

when i sought the aid of a therapist i was very fortunate to get someone i trusted, who was sharp as a tack and always made good sense when she opened her mouth. it was mostly luck.

the good thing is that you've made a whole lot of progress and now know you can hack a path forward, even if it is tiring and hard work.

as for the whole 'fitting in' thing, i wouldn't put too much stress on it. people are broadly knowable and you probably already have a roughly workable set of heuristics for understanding them en masse. the deeper you go, the less certain it gets and the more tangled and occluded the motives become. becoming an adept in that realm is a lifetime's work for all of us. we mostly tend to specialize, by narrowing our focus to a small number of friends and family and letting the rest float along at a shallow, easy depth.

tbrr i think i would quit my therapist if she gave me louise hay stuff

and she's an acolyte of Louise H4y who believes the past isn't a factor in a person's psychological makeup and all problems can be cured by repeating positive mantras.

Holy shit! The Louise H4y CD she gave me features a very bizarre claim that bad thoughts cause cancer and ... leprosy!?#@

― Spectrum, Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:18 PM (5 days ago)

okay, wait, i missed this. your therapist is a moron, spectrum. i am sorry i minimized your doubts abt her. get the fuck out.

you'd think a therapist would get that if you wanted self-help you'd help yrself and that's exactly why you're at a therapist, sheesh

let's add to the doubt pile! yeah, that's a little strange. you kind of expect not to agree 100% with all that your therapist says, but...

yes! that's exactly right Aimless. thank you for popping in with that. it really is a problem, in the back of my mind i think she might be coming from that creepy new age perspective. i read up on that author when she gave me the CD, and her ideas are reprehensible imo, and sometimes i feel like that's where my therapist is coming from. whenever she lets out some weird new agey thing, she loses credibility to me.

one time she said that we get back whatever "energy" we put out to the universe and so we're all responsible for that "energy". I was sitting there like, "what the hell is this?" i was right the first time ... a million times ago ... that i should find a new therapist. and these issues started pretty early, I was just desperate for help and so I stuck with her, but I feel like I've progressed enough now to move on.

and that's a good point about fitting in. my life is pretty deserted of close relationships right now, so i'm meeting shallow co-workers and aquaintances with a depth that's just not appropriate for the situation. maybe i shouldn't worry so much about it and focus my very personal stuff more selectively.

you rock 8)

aggg, thanks for chiming in all, I think it's time I find someone new

yeah who gives a shit about most coworkers

personally, i expect my therapist to have his/her head screwed down tight, to be focused on what i perceive as real and important, and smart enough to cut through my self-justifications and evasions. basically a mechanic, like any other healthcare worker. i don't need a friend or life coach. i need a good, empathetic listener who understands the workings of human psychology (as they're conventionally/professionally understood) and can help me see the whole system.

fwiw, i recently started up with a new therapist, and when i first met her, she said a couple things that struck me as dull, meaningless, vaguely new age encouragement blather. nothing too weird, just obvious platitudes and unsolicited "we're in this together" type verbal hugs. it gave me a twinge of doubt, but she's cheap, and i was pretty direct about not wanting that kind of thing. she's been more dispassionate since, and her approach is p trad freudian, so i'm not too worried. but that's the problem w therapy. a hell of a lot depends on this person you barely know.

ahhhh, the idea of firing my therapist makes me feel like i'm laying on a cloud. i think she's been doing more harm than good at this point. thanks again all.

i know that i've been waging a war of passive refusal my whole life, letting shit slide, letting myself slide, dodging real responsibility. this is a kind of hostility, oppositional defiance, an infantile stage we're supposed to grow out of. i can't deny any of that.

oh man i can relate to all of this and have been thinking about it today, reading the "would you push a button and redo your whole life" thread, longing for a redo, but thinking "you could start being less of a fuck-up right here and now by working instead of reading ILX all day, and are you doing it?"

if you work it out, please come and tell us the secret. (I know: if you work it out you'll be too busy getting your shit together or getting too rich from selling the secret to tell us for free.)

it sure made me feel like I was a failure if I didn't immediately grasp all things

yeah this too, not that I was ever that smart but I got too many pats on the head as a kid to know how to deal with things which need working at (anyone read the Carol Dweck book on this topic?), or just adult life in general, where you're just meant to be doing ok without needing a fuss abt the brilliance of your doing-ok-ness to be made

tiny violin etc.

yeah, spectrum, Iagree with everyone abt moving on. Don't feel shy about kind of "interviewing" therapists before you commit to a new one. Ask about their approaches, tell them what kind of work you want to do, find someone you can respect intellectually.

^ word for word

yeah, I think it's what I need to do. she doesn't want me to talk about my past, she seems really uncomfortable with my emotions, and now that I'm thinking about it, her logic is sorta ridiculous. this week i wanted to talk about what it was like growing up and being sensitive and unconventional for a guy ... my whole life people considered me sort-of eccentric, and not even in a bad way generally, but she said "you aren't that way because there are guys doing yoga down the hall."

and I'm thinking, what the hell does that have to do with anything!? not to mention yoga's a fashionable trend, for men and women. on top of going against the very experience of my own life ... people have said to my face that i'm weird and different! most of the time it was positive, but still, i hate when people dismiss me, and i wanna get a handle on this shit.

so i'm realizing all this help she's been giving me, i think that's me. after closely examining her thinking it actually seems pretty flawed, which isn't a shock if she's on board with louise hay.

If she's outlived her use for you then you should certainly start talking to her about ending the therapeutic relationship. I suspect you'll manage this better if you focus not on what she's got wrong so far, but instead on how you are going to move forward -- because that seems to be the framework with which she thinks about therapy.

It sounds as though she's the kind of therapist who considers focusing on the past to be (for want of a better word) self-indulgent: the impression I get from this thread is that you want to talk about your past and how it's snarled you up, and she wants you to focus on learning behaviours and a mindset that she thinks will adapt you better to the future. As far as I understand it, this impatience with self-reflection is pretty typical of CBT. You seem to want something more classically psychoanalytical. You have strong ideas about how your past self has informed your present self, but you still feel that you need to talk these out with someone -- because you want to explain yourself? because you want to be explained? because you think that you can go back and untangle these original traumas so that their echoes won't affect you so much? That might be a good thing to think about, when you're considering new therapists. This seems to have been a useful learning experience for you: you're working out what it is you want out of therapy, and you've decided that therapy is good for you. I reckon that if you frame the conversation in terms of those positives it might make it easier to get across to your therapist that you're confident in your decision to switch.

thanks, that's pretty helpful. honestly, though, I think it's gross that my therapist is pushing that louise hay crap on people, her ideas are dangerous and irresponsible. if it was just CBT I probably wouldn't be so icked out about it. guess it doesn't really matter for me in the scheme of things, though, i just need to get out of there before she mucks up my brain even more.

oh, man, i forgot to say that the most important thing is that you clearly don't respect her and her love of louise hay and that's the number one reason to get out asap!

(though i doubt she could really muck up your brain: you seem to know your own mind pretty well.)

yeah, she was helpful in the beginning, truth be told, but after looking into louise hay and the type of stuff she's into, the actual meaning of the ideas she was giving me are totally friggin bonkers!!! there's a basic common sense to them, but the conclusions i think she was getting at are something i am not down with whatsoever. i'm lucky enough that i ignored that aspect of it and went on my own tangents... which honestly seemed to throw her off a little.

oh man i can relate to all of this and have been thinking about it today, reading the "would you push a button and redo your whole life" thread, longing for a redo, but thinking "you could start being less of a fuck-up right here and now by working instead of reading ILX all day, and are you doing it?"

if you work it out, please come and tell us the secret

Yeah what contenderizer said pretty much describes me as well. I wouldn't say I've worked it out, but in the past couple years I've made a lot of strides, to the point where it's not my overriding mentality anymore. Some part of my ego was what was preventing me from doing things, I was afraid of failing or looking like an idiot. It was hard to figure this out because I was very good at telling myself I had things I was good at and things I was bad at, and I could get by just focusing on the few good things. While really I was neglecting huge aspects of my life. As it turns out, I can be good at things I thought I was bad at, it just took admitting where I was and getting the appropriate help. I don't know where the solution is in this or whether it applies to anyone else, but it was the realization I needed. Therapy helped a loooot.

Thanks Vinnie. Any tips on exploring this with therapists? I've been meaning to get back on the therapy wagon but am aware it hasn't really worked for me in the past.

I've had two long-ish-term attempts at therapy, and I had trouble selling this as an issue worthy of concern to the first guy. The second did, to her credit, say "it is because you are afraid of failure and you should just press on and do things anyway", and I would say "yes! yes, I am afraid of failure and must press on and do things anyway" but have no real idea of how to start doing it and keep doing it, while not really being able to isolate any specific reasons why not to discuss with her

For starters, finding a therapist who doesn't just help you make realizations, but also gives you a plan to make changes was key for me, and it sounds like it might be for you. I'm lucky that my first therapist was a good fit, but I've talked to friends who've done therapy where they felt there was too much discussing, not enough practical application. My therapist was big on making me set achievable, incrementally harder goals for myself, and I think that's the right approach for most people. Huh that kind of makes him sound like a life coach or something, but he never told me to do anything unbidden - I would always bring up my problems/goals first, and we would work on what was preventing me from taking the next step, etc.

Yeah the single most effective therapist I've ever had actually gave me concrete instructions on how to step forward--"here's what I want you to try this week." All the others would let me talk out the hour, nod, and show me the door. I didn't even realize the degree to which it was a problem until I recognized the contrast.

The thing I regret is that the first guy did set me a task in the first session, but I sort of half chickened out and half didn't see the point (because he hadn't related his task to the problems I was upset about at all), and he immediately labelled me as uncooperative and didn't set any more tasks and for the rest of our sessions we played petty semantic games on the theme of "you clearly don't want to change because you didn't do that one task, so let's not even bother"

though I mean I was 22 at the time and I guess every 22y/o feels like they are being labelled and pettily one-upped all the time and I probably did get kind of petulant so, you know, decade later, maybe I can finally tackle things properly now

It has to make sense to you as well, it can't be all action without talking through the plan either. Frankly, that guy sounds awful. Any therapist that assigns you a task without being able to convince you why you should do it and THEN gets mad that you didn't do it is doing a bad job. That's like shit I expect parents to do, and god knows how many of our problems stem from our parents to begin with. :)

i thought one of the big rules of talk therapy was to avoid judging?

i mean from the therapist side

Yeah the single most effective therapist I've ever had actually gave me concrete instructions on how to step forward--"here's what I want you to try this week." All the others would let me talk out the hour, nod, and show me the door. I didn't even realize the degree to which it was a problem until I recognized the contrast.

― hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, May 3, 2013 12:02 PM (8 hours ago)

otm. had a great session w my therapist this afternoon, and came away with three concrete steps to take this week. i do a lot of talking, but she's really good at pointing out the weak links and rationalizations in my thinking, helping me see that the demons are a lot smaller and more manageable than they seem when shrouded in denial.

It's now official and paid for and everything: I am going to be that sad, creepy old college student! Hooray/I want to die! That is, assuming I can get anywhere after two summer terms at community college, get financial aid, find some way to support myself after quitting the job that's been consuming ten hours of every day and most of my will to live for the last four years, etc.

I am going to be that sad, creepy old college student!

honestly, this has got to stop. you need to stop telling that to yourself, stop calling yourself that, etc.
all of my students are working adults and i don't find a single one of them sad or creepy. just let it go for your own good -- getting through school is hard enough without constant negative self-talk!!

actually, for accuracy's sake, not all of them are working, but they're all "nontraditional students"
some of them have kids in college, in fact!

also, congrats!!

Going back to school is always awesome!

congrats, TT, that's awesome.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

<3

I know there's nothing wrong with being a non-traditional student, but how am I supposed to accept that I lost my entire young adulthood first to freakishly severe social anxiety and b) to full-time work? I mean, I'm happy that I'm going to finally make some progress toward STARTING to atudy at a real, non-bullshit college as opposed to the open admission, glorified job training programs that have been my only option until now, but I've spent the last decade deferring the important social part of being young and I'm turning fucking thirty in just a few months without experiencing any of it and now I've deferred it so long I never will

And this . I can only open up enough to even express myself if I'm completely irresponsibly drunk, and there's nothing I or anybody else can do anymore to make it right

How are you supposed to accept xyz? I'm not sure. That's a really complicated question! I'm just saying that fixating on that part of this process is not doing you any favors. It's your right to fixate on whatever you want, but if you want things to improve (and it seems like you do) it seems pretty essential to stop being so hard on yourself about the past.

today i told my roommate i was going to class, then i laid silently on the floor for three hours, then i climbed out my bedroom window and walked around the house and came in the front door and said class was "pretty good"

:{ at least you still have some pretense to dignity.

me, i'd just sit on the couch in a stained t-shirt drinking beer and watching steve harvey's family fued 'til flies were buzzing around me.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/files/2010/11/Steve-Harvey.jpg

yeah i think like half of my emotional stress now is caused by pretending i don't have any. my dignity tho is only in my roommate's eyes, not mine or god's or the guy shuffling past the house while i climbed out who obviously has much worse problems than i do

fwiw i have v. much enjoyed your comments on russian history, among others