Yeah, cool, another Motown one. It's in the saxophone on that record.
― timellison, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:16 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
actually it's sort of in the bass too -- the bass doesn't actually sustain the note, but it doesn't play the bass notes of the chords either, it just does a little walk-up lick around the tonic
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 04:26 (ten years ago) link
I don't know what you would technically call it when the bass is a half step up from what should normally be the root of the chord, but it's a cool sound. It's used to great effect in the Manfred Mann version of Little Red Book.
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 04:56 (ten years ago) link
I think on Nowhere to Run I would just say it goes from F to G/F. Little Red Book is Bb/C.
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 04:59 (ten years ago) link
whole step, not half step
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 05:03 (ten years ago) link
Whole step up is a ninth like somebody posted up thread. It's actually not too uncommon an effect in certain situations to construct a bass line, walking or otherwise, where you hit the ninth where the root would be.
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 05:23 (ten years ago) link
Guess the interesting questions being raised by this thread are:1) From the original post: Who is it that decided to put the pedal point in? One would think that in a lot of cases the composer or arranger put it in, but in the case of Motown there is a good chance that it was James Jamerson, who was given an incredible amount of freedom in the studio, who came up with it.
2) From the discussion: what is the best name for a chord given that the lowest note does not seem to be the obvious root of a well-known chord shape or part of a common inversion of a well-known chord shape? Some people would say this involves examination of the surrounding harmony /steve_goldsoundz
Combining the two this thread forced me to remember that recently a friend of mine who is a really good bass player told me he played some kind of common pedal/sus note on a tune but the piano player he was playing with wasn't familiar with it or didn't like it, so he had to argue for his note.
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 06:04 (ten years ago) link
Ah, it just occurred to me that Joni Mitchell uses these all over the place, and in really interesting ways. "All I Want," "Both Sides Now," "A Case of You."
Maybe these would be better described as drones. But I suppose the distinction is less musical than, er, social? Drone has a "folk" connotation and pedal point has a "composed" connotation.
― leon d'amaleon, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:25 (ten years ago) link
― wk, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:59 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― wk, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:03 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Those are both whole steps!
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:29 (ten years ago) link
Well a lot of these chords are commonly written as something like "Fmaj/G" (F major over G)
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:34 (ten years ago) link
"Never Let Me Down Again" is completely built off of the idea of the vocal line as an inverted pedal point, as is most of "Behind the Wheel"
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:57 (ten years ago) link
Well a lot of these chords are commonly written as something like "Fmaj/G" (F major over G)Yeah, sure, if somebody wrote it down like that, as a slash chord, then that's what the name is. But if somebody just gave you the notes of the chord, you might want to weigh the options.
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:32 (ten years ago) link
The Beatles' "Getting Better" is an interesting example. The verses are not really a pedal point so much as a drone, I guess, but it's played by nearly all the instruments in the arrangement - bass, guitar, sitar, piano - in different octaves while the vocal melody is very, very busy.
― Huston we got chicken lol (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:39 (ten years ago) link
Those are both whole steps!― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:29 (1 hour ago)
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:29 (1 hour ago)
yeah I corrected myself. you even quoted it! it was late and I was drunk.
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:40 (ten years ago) link
My music theory teacher once said to me "you jazz guys are always coming up with a chord name for everything -- 'Oh, that's an A flat nine sus 4 sharp five flat nine chord'"
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:42 (ten years ago) link
seems weird to call it a 9th if it's in the bass though, doesn't it?
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:47 (ten years ago) link
it's a neg1
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:48 (ten years ago) link
er no I guess it's be a neg7
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:49 (ten years ago) link
lol
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:51 (ten years ago) link
here's a good onehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMJsrZkEZZw
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link
Well it's not at the bottom of the bass line- typically you might play 1,3,5,7,9- but it is below everything else.
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:59 (ten years ago) link
Well a slash chord also specifies that you want that note in the bass, and otherwise you're leaving it up to the people reading the charts
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
I don't know, 9th to me implies that it's at the upper end of the voicing, otherwise it's just a 2 right?
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:01 (ten years ago) link
yeah huge difference between writing a chart that says C/D vs. C9
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
some of it may be influenced by how closely other notes are clustered to it? generally a 9th is going to be above the core triad that defines the chord whereas a 2nd is in a tone cluster with the triad, so if the bass note is an octave below the core chord it makes syntactic sense to me to consider it a 9th to imply the intended spacing of the chord
notation-wise slash notation makes more sense obv
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link
_Well a slash chord also specifies that you want that note in the bass, and otherwise you're leaving it up to the people reading the charts_yeah huge difference between writing a chart that says C/D vs. C9
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
I guess one issue with a chord like F/G is that this is best name for it and there is no great way of referring to the type of chord it is without referring to the actual names of the notes.
The other thing is about the terminology of saying something is a second or a ninth. Most of the time when people use the word ninth it implies that it is a higher voice in the chord, as y'all have suggested, and that the (flat)seventh is present, whereas second implies that the seventh(or a sixth filling in for the seventh) is not present. But every once in a while somebody might use either one to simply mean something like 'a G somewhere on an F chord'
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:35 (ten years ago) link
Then there is the Steely Dan "Mu Chord" apparently they invented to get a kind of jazz voicing without sounding too much like actual jazz
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:46 (ten years ago) link
I guess some would also call that F/G a G9sus4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V9sus4_chord#Jazz_sus_chord
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 16:59 (ten years ago) link
yeah steely dan did not "invent" that
― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:01 (ten years ago) link
Tell it to this guy: http://www.hakwright.co.uk/steelydan/mu-major.html
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:02 (ten years ago) link
Hopefully they came up with the name, at least.
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:03 (ten years ago) link
― Huston we got chicken lol (Phil D.), Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:39 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I can hear the verse melody as modal over a drone, but the chorus melody seems like more of a question. It seems like maybe there's a chord progression, but it's only being suggested by the bass line (while the other instruments are just repeating one chord).
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:06 (ten years ago) link
the getting better verse just sounds like it stays on G the whole time to me.
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:18 (ten years ago) link
Let's see what Alan Pollack has to say: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/gb.shtml
― Blue Yodel No. 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:25 (ten years ago) link
I-ii-iii-IV for the chorus sounds OK playing it by yourself, but not so great when played along with the arrangement.
I checked the Wilfrid Mellers book and he doesn't discuss it.
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 17:40 (ten years ago) link
chorus sounds to me like C, Dm/C, G, F
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 18:28 (ten years ago) link
I'd definitely disagree with the G chord. I think the bass has E on the downbeat.
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 18:42 (ten years ago) link
And then D on the downbeat of the next measure, so maybe it's back to the ii chord.
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 18:43 (ten years ago) link
(Making it I-ii-iii-ii instead of I-ii-iii-IV.)
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 18:46 (ten years ago) link
yeah you're right. now that I actually figured out the bass line it just seems like C, Am, Em, F
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 19:10 (ten years ago) link
I-vi-iii-IV
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 19:12 (ten years ago) link
The bass line has A and C in that second bar, but that's not an A minor chord. The notes in the melody are D and F.
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 19:23 (ten years ago) link
I'm listening to the electric piano part in the left channel as well as the bass line and it sure sounds like Am to me. doesn't really matter what the melody is doing imo since melodies use notes outside of the chord all of the time.
But I guess if you want to include the G drone that the guitar is playing in the right channel throughout that whole progression, then it's C, Am7, Em, Fadd9
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 19:56 (ten years ago) link
hmm, maybe it's a Dm. I don't know
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 20:03 (ten years ago) link
I guess I should have just looked at that alan pollack page haha
― wk, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 20:04 (ten years ago) link
The Nazz' "Forget All About It" is cool. In the verse, it's i-IV-III. It's not a tonic pedal point under the i and IV chords, but there's a pentatonic run under the iv chord and it has the same effect.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 May 2013 01:23 (ten years ago) link
Just realized it's in six-four, too!
― timellison, Thursday, 23 May 2013 01:43 (ten years ago) link
And the pedal-like pentatonic thing happens in the extra two beats in the measure.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 May 2013 02:03 (ten years ago) link
Chorus of "Listen to What the Man Said" has a bass tonic pedal underneath a ii chord at the beginning and then over I-ii-iii ("That's what the man said/So won't you listen to what the man said?").
― timellison, Saturday, 25 May 2013 02:59 (ten years ago) link
R.E.M.'s "You Are the Everything" - alternates between I and V and bass keeps pedal on V.
― timellison, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 02:19 (ten years ago) link
every Hüsker Dü song
― flappy bird, Thursday, June 9, 2016 11:22 PM (two years ago)
― flappy bird, Monday, 16 July 2018 18:56 (five years ago) link
Really?
― timellison, Monday, 16 July 2018 20:49 (five years ago) link
somebody pointed it out upthread--joni mitchell is the queen of pedal points
― ant banks and wasp (voodoo chili), Monday, 16 July 2018 20:53 (five years ago) link
Pavement - "We Dance" almost qualifies, there's a brief A-major containing a C# but all other chords in the song pedal around the D on the b-string.
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, 16 July 2018 22:27 (five years ago) link
Your Song (the intro)Maybe I'm Amazed ("maybe i'm a man")
― ant banks and wasp (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 01:30 (five years ago) link
"Xanadu"
― timellison, Saturday, 21 July 2018 01:35 (five years ago) link
"Even in the Quietest Moments" by Supertramp wins this - the backdrop of a constant D in the bass throughout the entire song underlies a shifting palette of major, minor, dominant, and diminished chords, often with 7ths atop them. There's at least seven different chords in the verses and chorus, more if inversions are counted separately. très cool
― Lee626, Saturday, 21 July 2018 03:39 (five years ago) link
Opening riff and chorus to Cliff Richard, "We Don't Talk Anymore"
― timellison, Saturday, 21 July 2018 16:51 (five years ago) link
"Pandora's Golden Heebie Jeebies"
― timellison, Saturday, 3 November 2018 06:22 (five years ago) link
ooh i like that this thing i like has a name. is there a name for its kind of opposite, e.g. when a bassline changes under a repeating melody (if that makes sense)?
My favorite example of this is Peter Gabriel's "It Is Accomplished" (from Passion). The whole song is one four-note sequence (A-G#-F#-E) while the bass creates new chords each measure (A B F#m C#m A B E). The bridge is the same four-note sequence with the bass adding a new chord and sequence (D E, repeated).
― SlimAndSlam, Sunday, 4 November 2018 02:27 (five years ago) link
There are so many Genesis and Phil Collins tracks that make use of this.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Sunday, 4 November 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
Holger Czukay to thread.
― Alma Kirby (Tom D.), Sunday, 4 November 2018 19:45 (five years ago) link
"If I Needed Someone"
― timellison, Monday, 3 December 2018 03:53 (five years ago) link
The Human League - "Mirror Man"
― timellison, Monday, 7 January 2019 20:45 (five years ago) link
"Love American Style" (on the "By the dawn's early light, my love" section).
― timellison, Sunday, 10 March 2019 20:54 (five years ago) link
ooo nice one
― flappy bird, Sunday, 10 March 2019 20:56 (five years ago) link
"A Groovy Kind of Love"
― timellison, Sunday, 5 April 2020 23:25 (four years ago) link
A pedal on 5 when it goes to the ii chord!
― timellison, Sunday, 5 April 2020 23:30 (four years ago) link