Pedal points!

i've never really understood pedal point. like, superstition and sex machine are often given as examples of pedal point in pop, but i'm not sure i understand what distinguishes them. the bass doesn't repeat the tone constantly throughout superstition's dissonant changes, though everything does resolve only when it drops back to it. is that the crux? not the maintenance of the consonant/dissonant tone (as in drone music), but the fact that it provides the eventual resolution?

Pink Floyd's "Us And Them" holds a D pedal point under all the changes in the verse.

Tim put it really simply in the OP:
"This is a consonant note that's sustained when chords change even though it may not be a note of the new chord."

Bonus Martha and The Vandellas video- watch for the bass player!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mKm9BZU3n8

I don't think Sex Machine and Superstition are really "pedal point" they're just songs that linger on the same chord for a long time

Think of the sustained G that runs through Blackbird. That's basically a pedal point although not in the bass register.

Wait till 6:10 in that video to see a guy who has been known to use a pedal point or two, although can't think of an example apart from original post

okay, yeah, after some reading and listening, i get it. simpler than i was thinking. it really is just a sustained note or tone. thanks for the assist.

i wanna be your dog piano for ex

Tim put it really simply in the OP:
"This is a consonant note that's sustained when chords change even though it may not be a note of the new chord."

I dunno, I would say that the bass is sustaining a note then by definition it's a part of the harmony. it's can't not be in the chord.

"if the bass is sustaining"

It's an interesting thought. In the case of "Honey Chile," then, you'd have to say that the ii chord is a minor seventh in third inversion.

yeah you can argue that -- obviously the very fact that the bass note IS sustaining puts whatever note it is playing "in the chord". Really you're talking about implied harmony, where you have a progression that would "intuitively" or "normally" go to a chord that does not include the bass note, and yet the bass note stays the same when it goes to that chord

I don't know what you'd say when the tonic is sustained in the bass over a bVII chord, though, like in the "Boogie Fever" example.

That it's a radically inverted ninth chord?

that's the same as the "Nowhere to Run" progression isn't it? Yeah, I'd just say it's a 9th chord

Yeah, cool, another Motown one. It's in the saxophone on that record.

I don't know what you'd say when the tonic is sustained in the bass over a bVII chord, though, like in the "Boogie Fever" example.

― timellison, Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

an eleventh chord on the tonic played without a third and fifth

I like that, actually, because it acknowledges that the tonic is in the bass.

Yeah, cool, another Motown one. It's in the saxophone on that record.

― timellison, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:16 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

actually it's sort of in the bass too -- the bass doesn't actually sustain the note, but it doesn't play the bass notes of the chords either, it just does a little walk-up lick around the tonic

I don't know what you would technically call it when the bass is a half step up from what should normally be the root of the chord, but it's a cool sound. It's used to great effect in the Manfred Mann version of Little Red Book.

I think on Nowhere to Run I would just say it goes from F to G/F. Little Red Book is Bb/C.

whole step, not half step

Whole step up is a ninth like somebody posted up thread. It's actually not too uncommon an effect in certain situations to construct a bass line, walking or otherwise, where you hit the ninth where the root would be.

Guess the interesting questions being raised by this thread are:
1) From the original post: Who is it that decided to put the pedal point in? One would think that in a lot of cases the composer or arranger put it in, but in the case of Motown there is a good chance that it was James Jamerson, who was given an incredible amount of freedom in the studio, who came up with it.

2) From the discussion: what is the best name for a chord given that the lowest note does not seem to be the obvious root of a well-known chord shape or part of a common inversion of a well-known chord shape? Some people would say this involves examination of the surrounding harmony /steve_goldsoundz

Combining the two this thread forced me to remember that recently a friend of mine who is a really good bass player told me he played some kind of common pedal/sus note on a tune but the piano player he was playing with wasn't familiar with it or didn't like it, so he had to argue for his note.

Ah, it just occurred to me that Joni Mitchell uses these all over the place, and in really interesting ways. "All I Want," "Both Sides Now," "A Case of You."

Maybe these would be better described as drones. But I suppose the distinction is less musical than, er, social? Drone has a "folk" connotation and pedal point has a "composed" connotation.

I think on Nowhere to Run I would just say it goes from F to G/F. Little Red Book is Bb/C.

― wk, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:59 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

whole step, not half step

― wk, Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:03 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Those are both whole steps!

2) From the discussion: what is the best name for a chord given that the lowest note does not seem to be the obvious root of a well-known chord shape or part of a common inversion of a well-known chord shape? Some people would say this involves examination of the surrounding harmony /steve_goldsoundz

Well a lot of these chords are commonly written as something like "Fmaj/G" (F major over G)

"Never Let Me Down Again" is completely built off of the idea of the vocal line as an inverted pedal point, as is most of "Behind the Wheel"

Well a lot of these chords are commonly written as something like "Fmaj/G" (F major over G)
Yeah, sure, if somebody wrote it down like that, as a slash chord, then that's what the name is. But if somebody just gave you the notes of the chord, you might want to weigh the options.

The Beatles' "Getting Better" is an interesting example. The verses are not really a pedal point so much as a drone, I guess, but it's played by nearly all the instruments in the arrangement - bass, guitar, sitar, piano - in different octaves while the vocal melody is very, very busy.

Those are both whole steps!

― huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 1 May 2013 14:29 (1 hour ago)

yeah I corrected myself. you even quoted it! it was late and I was drunk.

My music theory teacher once said to me "you jazz guys are always coming up with a chord name for everything -- 'Oh, that's an A flat nine sus 4 sharp five flat nine chord'"

Whole step up is a ninth like somebody posted up thread. It's actually not too uncommon an effect in certain situations to construct a bass line, walking or otherwise, where you hit the ninth where the root would be.

seems weird to call it a 9th if it's in the bass though, doesn't it?

it's a neg1

er no I guess it's be a neg7

lol

here's a good one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMJsrZkEZZw

Well it's not at the bottom of the bass line- typically you might play 1,3,5,7,9- but it is below everything else.

My music theory teacher once said to me "you jazz guys are always coming up with a chord name for everything -- 'Oh, that's an A flat nine sus 4 sharp five flat nine chord'"

Well a slash chord also specifies that you want that note in the bass, and otherwise you're leaving it up to the people reading the charts

Well it's not at the bottom of the bass line- typically you might play 1,3,5,7,9- but it is below everything else.

I don't know, 9th to me implies that it's at the upper end of the voicing, otherwise it's just a 2 right?

Well a slash chord also specifies that you want that note in the bass, and otherwise you're leaving it up to the people reading the charts

yeah huge difference between writing a chart that says C/D vs. C9

some of it may be influenced by how closely other notes are clustered to it? generally a 9th is going to be above the core triad that defines the chord whereas a 2nd is in a tone cluster with the triad, so if the bass note is an octave below the core chord it makes syntactic sense to me to consider it a 9th to imply the intended spacing of the chord

notation-wise slash notation makes more sense obv

_Well a slash chord also specifies that you want that note in the bass, and otherwise you're leaving it up to the people reading the charts_

yeah huge difference between writing a chart that says C/D vs. C9

I guess one issue with a chord like F/G is that this is best name for it and there is no great way of referring to the type of chord it is without referring to the actual names of the notes.

The other thing is about the terminology of saying something is a second or a ninth. Most of the time when people use the word ninth it implies that it is a higher voice in the chord, as y'all have suggested, and that the (flat)seventh is present, whereas second implies that the seventh(or a sixth filling in for the seventh) is not present. But every once in a while somebody might use either one to simply mean something like 'a G somewhere on an F chord'

Then there is the Steely Dan "Mu Chord" apparently they invented to get a kind of jazz voicing without sounding too much like actual jazz

I guess some would also call that F/G a G9sus4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V9sus4_chord#Jazz_sus_chord

yeah steely dan did not "invent" that

Tell it to this guy: http://www.hakwright.co.uk/steelydan/mu-major.html

Hopefully they came up with the name, at least.

Length of Love. Length of fucking Love. Guitar on pedal point, motorik Stereolab beat, Duran Duran bassline.

Just take me, I am yours, guitar pedal points.

*flails helplessly*

TS: pedal point on the tonic vs. pedal point on the fifth

xp I mentioned something I think is similar what's going on in that Interpol song upthread and learned that in jazz circles it has the wonderfully scientific name of 'Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony', or, if you're a real head, simply CESH.

Oh god I am such a sucker for this, and I've realised that every single one of the Interpol songs I really love and carolanne on is just a giant gleeful pedal point love-in. Like, I am so predictable in my musical loves, but also slightly relieved that there is a reason that there is a reason for me finding this stuff such musical catnip. Sure, 'Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony' sounds better than "fingerbanging guitar solo" but that's exactly what it was on The New, just this long, hanging pedal point in the form of this endless one-note guitar riff that the rest of the band kind of revolves around.

Mammoth has one, too. It's so fucking obvious now I'm hearing it for the... 18th time or whatever. The whole song is based around this blang-blang-blang-blang guitar pedal point, and then the bass goes into a glam descend - SORRY! I learned the fancy pants word for "glam descend" it is apparently, an ~"Andalusian cadence"~ - and that is just one of those musical manoeuvres I am completely helpless in the face of. And then for the middle 8, they switch, and the guitar takes the glam descend the bass goes on the pedal point and it's just... oooh magic.

It's really super super obvious stuff, and I kinda hate myself a little for falling for it. But yeah. Kessler seems to be all about pedal points and that's what scratches my musical itch in this otherwise terrible, terrible band. yes.

i think 80% of any music i have ever made falls into this category. no shame.

Oh. I just gave in and watched a live video because I was so curious about that "fingerbanging guitar solo" and oh. Oh oh oh. First, I'm glad that my ears for production are accurate, and the guitar is doubled. But mostly oh. Oh oh oh. The ~secret~ to that sound and it is not a tremolo arm either it is oh it is oh oh oh ooohhh. That is very clever, very very clever, oh.

But really, I cannot wait until this obsession ends because spewing this obsession over every thread is really getting silly now.

But still. Oh.

"Surrender"

The Who - "The Real Me"

Styx - "Fooling Yourself"

every Hüsker Dü song

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Rqvry3K05qQ/T3dqKlRbQNI/AAAAAAAAAG4/2Pr1sD7uqJE/s1600/U2-With-Or-Without-Y-351964.jpg

The "California Girls" one where it goes from a tonic major chord to a minor five chord at the beginning of the verse.

That's a good chord change.

"Darling Be Home Soon"

Hm. Will have to listen to again

"Detroit Rock City"

Jimi Hendrix Experience - "Love or Confusion"

"Got to Get You into My Life"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp1HWhnpfvs

every Hüsker Dü song

― flappy bird, Thursday, June 9, 2016 11:22 PM (two years ago)

Really?

somebody pointed it out upthread--joni mitchell is the queen of pedal points

Pavement - "We Dance" almost qualifies, there's a brief A-major containing a C# but all other chords in the song pedal around the D on the b-string.

Your Song (the intro)
Maybe I'm Amazed ("maybe i'm a man")

"Xanadu"

"Even in the Quietest Moments" by Supertramp wins this - the backdrop of a constant D in the bass throughout the entire song underlies a shifting palette of major, minor, dominant, and diminished chords, often with 7ths atop them. There's at least seven different chords in the verses and chorus, more if inversions are counted separately. très cool

Opening riff and chorus to Cliff Richard, "We Don't Talk Anymore"

"Pandora's Golden Heebie Jeebies"

ooh i like that this thing i like has a name. is there a name for its kind of opposite, e.g. when a bassline changes under a repeating melody (if that makes sense)?

My favorite example of this is Peter Gabriel's "It Is Accomplished" (from Passion). The whole song is one four-note sequence (A-G#-F#-E) while the bass creates new chords each measure (A B F#m C#m A B E). The bridge is the same four-note sequence with the bass adding a new chord and sequence (D E, repeated).

There are so many Genesis and Phil Collins tracks that make use of this.

Holger Czukay to thread.

"If I Needed Someone"

The Human League - "Mirror Man"

"Love American Style" (on the "By the dawn's early light, my love" section).

ooo nice one

"A Groovy Kind of Love"

A pedal on 5 when it goes to the ii chord!