privilege as a meme

Also, no one is obligated to be nice.

sure, but that argument can be made to undermine the problematization of 'privilege', or identity politics, etc, as well fwiw

would like to think that a concern for the underprivileged is not just about power dynamics, that there's maybe some level of compassion or belief in human worth in there as well. hard to ask for respect for your cause/position while also declaring your right to take pleasure in senseless dickishness (not suggesting anyone's innocent of this, don't get me wrong)

and on that note, not so sure about your defense of public ridicule/bullying - hardly that noble usually, and even when it is about 'enforcing norms', eh that's a pretty amoral and cruel process sometimes(and sometimes pretty conservative one), and hardly beyond criticism

sort of reminds me of the woody allen joke, "I'm a bigot, but for the left." but i guess from a tactical perspective, people who defend the blogs would say it is necessary to go through a cruel process of enforcing "new norms." as you can gather from my posts, i don't want to think that is necessary... i am a believer in civil discourse, and in treating everyone with dignity, even violent criminals or whatever... but i guess that is its own discussion.

xp i'll repeat what i said before: not everyone is concerned with gaining "respect for their cause", not everything a woman does is meant to reflect on "the feminism movement" on the whole, and angry catharsis can be a lifesaver

and ppl who have been systemically shat on and held down their whole lives are not obligated to have a belief in everyone's beautiful human worth, the right to anger is necessary

Going to self-defense class, sharpening knife. Behave.

and ppl who have been systemically shat on and held down their whole lives are not obligated to have a belief in everyone's beautiful human worth except nerds

- bob marley

irl lols

lol being bullied by the cool kids =/= systemic life long oppression! come on

YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE THAT

bullying can be pretty traumatic.

but that doesn't make it an indicator of oppression

i think it is different than institutional oppression. i don't think it is worth debating whether it is more or less psychologically devastating... in most cases it probably isn't but in some cases it might be... but i think it is just a different kind of oppression, that operates differently, and has more localized consequences.

there's that sliding sale of privilege. i had a hard life so fuck you and yours. can't get behind this strategy, but hey agree to disagree

xp

(meant to put that "i had a hard life" sentence in quotations)

i'm sorry io

i have failed u

everyone has had a hard life. suffering is universal. no one "has it easy."

also, being underprivileged often makes you more likely to hold prejudiced, ignorant attitudes, not less. but that doesn't mean you aren't underprivileged, and derserving of compassion, like eveyrone is, in my view.

is that statement based on anything at all

i think it's important to keep individual experience separated from our sense of general demographic realities. the (in this case hypothetical) fact that a straight white male may have been oppressed in this or that situation doesn't take anything away from the general truth that straight white males as a group receive a great deal of unearned social privilege.

also, even if straight white males are in general highly privileged, these aren't the only privilege groups that exist. the able-bodied, the "attractive", those who haven't suffered abuse or other psychologically scarring trauma: these groups are also specially privileged.

is that statement based on anything at all

yeah, ima call bullshit on the underprivileged having some special claim on bigotry. it's everywhere. rich fuckers got it too.

i think it's important to keep individual experience separated from our sense of general demographic realities

i think it's absolutely vital to do the exact opposite.

won't everyone think of the poor maligned jerks

looooool at all of this

i wasn't saying rich people weren't bigoted but just like, i don't know, the okc tumblr sexist dudes seemed to be misogynistic because they were embittered... their sense of being underprivileged, because unattractive, made their male privilege more attractive to them, and *this* is what is kind of, er, grotesque about their attitudes.... they are reactionaries.

hmm @ darragh. hmmmmmmm.

you're messing with me, right? cuz individual experience is endlessly variable, while demographics realities are generally fixed (at any given moment, anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXShit8aEi0

yeah i definitely agree with you contenderizer: it is impossible, from the outside, to say what someone's experience has been like, even if you can surmise that they have benefited from various forms of institutional privilege. that's the main thing that i have been trying, ineptly, to say on this thread.

i'm not, contends, but i spose it depends on whether we're discussing a rule for

(i) justification of behaviour we revile normally but cheer on when the target is someone we've decided (in our perfection) is an overprivileged group

or

(ii) yknow a way to behave in general

xp no one is saying that "attractive" people don't benefit from certain privileges the problem is people itt equating them to institutional oppressions that carry a history and a body count (able-bodiedness and psychological trauma are usually considered actual oppressions, not rly on the same level as "not hot" or "likes star trek too much")

capital-P Privilege vs privilege, if you will, idk

yeah, but i think it is important to note -- not that you are debating this -- the subjective pain caused by different types of experiences is impossible to quantify. so, like, some straight man's experience of being not-hot might be just absolutely devastating to them, and it might be unfair to say that that experience is invalid, or that that pain isn't as real as the pain felt by a woman, who might face more pressure from society to be hot, but is nevertheless able to deal with it much more constructively, for whatever reason.

but also, just straight up bullying faced by groups like the obese, or people with speech impediments, or whatever, IS a kind of abuse, and can be rather acute. i don't know: these things are harder to politicize, but they're real.

and to be completely honest fedoras of okc is literally the only thing i can remember where this discussion would even be relevant, i can't remember ever seeing (even on tumblr!) a privileged person being treated like shit if it wasn't in response to something shitty that they did first

i get you zach, that makes sense. "institutional oppressions that carry a history and a body count" is a v good way of characterizing the distinction.

was slip-sliding in my mind from the specific kind of privilege that's at issue in this thread to unearned privilege in general

the "body count" thing is a fairly common marker ime

yeah, i shouldn't need the reminder, but it's late, the seas are high

maybe i can't parse what here is all strictly american or w/e, is that a thing here

i agree it's dangerous to conflate those two types of privilege. but i wish there was a way to at the same time be sensitive to both, and also not conflate them.

what's the huge value in distinguishing btwn the two, from the POV of the individual who feels they're experieng the oppression?

Guys whose dads didn't watch football with them.

great thread

love seeing elmo and mordy agree about something even for a minute

what's the huge value in distinguishing btwn the two, from the POV of the individual who feels they're experieng the oppression?

the political dimension. the oppression of (supposedly) "ugly" people by a society that unfairly favors the (supposedly) "attractive" may be a very real thing, but it's hard to combat or frame in political terms. it has no body count, and the groups involved have no organizational structure or cultural commonality. it's hard to draw a connection between this sort of entitlement/oppression and larger institutional systems. therefore, it doesn't make sense to construct our framing of political "privilege" to include this sort of thing. not at this point, anyway...

xp

and i'm not saying that bullying doesn't suck for people and that it's a great way to go, but i can tell you as someone who was bullied more than most kids as a pubescent and as someone who has dealt with extreme often-body-shame-related depression, i still have it way easier than a lot of people i know! call me ugly and maybe i'll still feel bummed out but tomorrow i still won't get rejected from the job because of my name on the resume, still won't suffer sexual harassment every day there, still not get stopped and frisked on the walk home.

my being bullied doesn't come as an addition or as a factor in other bigger aspects of my potential shit-taking, it wasn't the same for me as kids who were bullied for being gay, for being disabled, for being a person of color, for being fat (which many people including me do consider an oppression), etc. i agree that invisible disorders can make the distinction harder, but again, there's rarely any of these situations in which people are shamed/bullied for only the way they dress or their lack of social grace. and frankly having suicidal depression still doesn't mean people don't have the right to give you shit after you do something racist or sexist or etc

*still won't

lol contendo i'm sure there's an Ugly Dudes Anonymous group somewhere on the internet

i remember a tumblr where a dude was saying how oppressed he was because he had a "small white dick"

lol contendo i'm sure there's an Ugly Dudes Anonymous group somewhere on the internet

yeah, and i'm sure it links directly to a hundred misandry blogs :(

a "small white dick"

sounds like a tinned delicacy

A few years ago I saw a man being banned from a grocery store because it had a no big bags policy and he wouldnt leave his bag at the counter. He was not cooperative so the police came and he made an example of me and pointed out I had a really big bag in the store and he said THIS IS ALL BECAUSE IM A GAY WHITE MAN! I'm not sure where this fits in I'm just reminded of it.