i'm not in favor of bullying but tbh i don't feel a bit sorry for those guys. pretty much every woman i know who's ever had an okc profile has gotten barraged with creepy and demeaning and outright hateful messages from random strangers on a regular basis. if stuff like this discourages that behavior, more power to tumblr imo.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:41 (eleven years ago) link
also, mordy + in orbit generally otm
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:42 (eleven years ago) link
And also again (and again, and again), singling out a category that for whatever reasons is meaningful to you and saying the whole exercise of identifying and breaking down invisible-knapsack privilege is less useful or suspect in some way because that specific category is underrepresented in the diagnosis is BAD. STOP DOING THAT. It makes the speaker seem like a blindered twit who only wants to weasel some conception of themselves out of perceived blame.
― lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:42 (eleven years ago) link
from what i remember the vast majority (if not all) of the posts on nice guys of okc were guys with "ugly ideas" over the pictures. there are other ones that do a lot of shaming but for that one the point seemed to be mostly abt highlighting the hypocrisy
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:48 (eleven years ago) link
i think i might be confusing this tumblr with "fedoras of okc" where the emphasis seemed to be on the pictures.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:49 (eleven years ago) link
And if anyone else wants to whine that straight white men are really so much worse off than everyone who is not them thinks they are, I AM GOING TO KNIFE A BITCH TONIGHT. Shut it. I have a class at 7.30, someone else will have to take over holding this fort in my absence.
― lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:49 (eleven years ago) link
xp indeed, while there is some overlap between the fedoras & nice guys of okc, ppl are conflating them to strange effect itt
― ogmor, Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:50 (eleven years ago) link
also -
"i can't speak for the us but ime in the uk i don't think i've ever worked with somebody who wasn't middle class, or came from a poor background"
this is crazy, for how many ppl is this true?
― ogmor, Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:51 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, sorry, i think i definitely made that mistake. i am still uncomfortable with the idea of public shaming -- like, i wouldn't make a tumblr like that -- but i think, idk, pointing out people with sexist ideas is justified. i also want to add that i am not saying that straight white men are worse off than people say they are. that's not what i think. i think institutional privilege is weighted toward that category overwhelmingly and that dismantling the system that favors them is an important and urgent project.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:53 (eleven years ago) link
I do have to take issue with this:
If some of them shared a quality of not being very highly placed in a patriarchal system
I don't really buy that hierarchies based on attractiveness, social ease, etc. are inherently "patriarchal"
otherwise agree with most of what you posted and hope i have not caused you to want to knife a bitch
― --808 542137 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 11 April 2013 22:59 (eleven years ago) link
That got away from me in the press but thank you for bringing it back: what LG said is completely bonkers to me. I know a signif number of ppl personally who grew up with welfare, food stamps, etc, who now are professionals, have advanced degrees, and are fully integrated into my work and social circles with everyone else. And I know there are more than a couple of ilxors who grew up poor and disadvantaged in multiple ways and yet are educated, media savvy, internet-using moderns just like everyone else. I do not recognize my own experience anywhere in his account.
― lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:00 (eleven years ago) link
public shaming can be good and can be bad. depends on who's doing it to whom, why and how, etc. for instance, i'm glad to see see bigots and bullies shamed down, but less glad to see the weak and ostracized ridiculed for being "weird". sometimes the twain meet, i suppose.
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:01 (eleven years ago) link
i also am kind of flabbergasted by the "never meet a poor" business. maybe america really does allow a lot more social mobility than the old world, i dunno.
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:02 (eleven years ago) link
it's ok guys ronan was public schooled
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:03 (eleven years ago) link
(he's gonna go fucking nuts when he reads that)
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:04 (eleven years ago) link
oi
― how's life, Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:04 (eleven years ago) link
xp to contenderizer. that is all i was saying. there was a resemblance b/w the nice guys tumblr (and to a greater extent, the fedoras tumblr, which was in the back of my mind) sort of bordered on conventional bullying. i still think the "nice guy" attitude/entitlement is a real problem, i guess i should have been clearer about that.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:04 (eleven years ago) link
idk it can be tough to know you're talking/working with 'a poor person' but i do run into the odd one on the bus or street, tho obv i'd never approach the rough beast like
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:05 (eleven years ago) link
wtf is going on here
― and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:05 (eleven years ago) link
I want to back up this public shaming thing ("public shaming") because when a person HAS DONE A THING AND IS NOT SORRY, it is not necessarily "shaming" to just make it known that they did it and stand behind their actions. If that thing is fucking shameful then that is the consequence for them.
― lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:07 (eleven years ago) link
^xp
― how's life, Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:07 (eleven years ago) link
whenever LG talks abt poor ppl itt i imagine him thinking of like street urchins with newsy caps and typhus
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:07 (eleven years ago) link
Also, no one is obligated to be nice.
sure, but that argument can be made to undermine the problematization of 'privilege', or identity politics, etc, as well fwiw
would like to think that a concern for the underprivileged is not just about power dynamics, that there's maybe some level of compassion or belief in human worth in there as well. hard to ask for respect for your cause/position while also declaring your right to take pleasure in senseless dickishness (not suggesting anyone's innocent of this, don't get me wrong)
and on that note, not so sure about your defense of public ridicule/bullying - hardly that noble usually, and even when it is about 'enforcing norms', eh that's a pretty amoral and cruel process sometimes(and sometimes pretty conservative one), and hardly beyond criticism
― Chris S, Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:10 (eleven years ago) link
sort of reminds me of the woody allen joke, "I'm a bigot, but for the left." but i guess from a tactical perspective, people who defend the blogs would say it is necessary to go through a cruel process of enforcing "new norms." as you can gather from my posts, i don't want to think that is necessary... i am a believer in civil discourse, and in treating everyone with dignity, even violent criminals or whatever... but i guess that is its own discussion.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:14 (eleven years ago) link
xp i'll repeat what i said before: not everyone is concerned with gaining "respect for their cause", not everything a woman does is meant to reflect on "the feminism movement" on the whole, and angry catharsis can be a lifesaver
and ppl who have been systemically shat on and held down their whole lives are not obligated to have a belief in everyone's beautiful human worth, the right to anger is necessary
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:16 (eleven years ago) link
Going to self-defense class, sharpening knife. Behave.
― lets just remember to blame the patriarchy for (in orbit), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:20 (eleven years ago) link
and ppl who have been systemically shat on and held down their whole lives are not obligated to have a belief in everyone's beautiful human worth except nerds
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:39 (eleven years ago) link
- bob marley
irl lols
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:40 (eleven years ago) link
lol being bullied by the cool kids =/= systemic life long oppression! come on
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:42 (eleven years ago) link
YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE THAT
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:44 (eleven years ago) link
bullying can be pretty traumatic.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:44 (eleven years ago) link
but that doesn't make it an indicator of oppression
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:45 (eleven years ago) link
i think it is different than institutional oppression. i don't think it is worth debating whether it is more or less psychologically devastating... in most cases it probably isn't but in some cases it might be... but i think it is just a different kind of oppression, that operates differently, and has more localized consequences.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:46 (eleven years ago) link
there's that sliding sale of privilege. i had a hard life so fuck you and yours. can't get behind this strategy, but hey agree to disagree
xp
― Chris S, Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:46 (eleven years ago) link
(meant to put that "i had a hard life" sentence in quotations)
― Chris S, Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:47 (eleven years ago) link
i'm sorry io
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:48 (eleven years ago) link
i have failed u
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:49 (eleven years ago) link
everyone has had a hard life. suffering is universal. no one "has it easy."
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:49 (eleven years ago) link
also, being underprivileged often makes you more likely to hold prejudiced, ignorant attitudes, not less. but that doesn't mean you aren't underprivileged, and derserving of compassion, like eveyrone is, in my view.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:50 (eleven years ago) link
is that statement based on anything at all
― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:51 (eleven years ago) link
i think it's important to keep individual experience separated from our sense of general demographic realities. the (in this case hypothetical) fact that a straight white male may have been oppressed in this or that situation doesn't take anything away from the general truth that straight white males as a group receive a great deal of unearned social privilege.
also, even if straight white males are in general highly privileged, these aren't the only privilege groups that exist. the able-bodied, the "attractive", those who haven't suffered abuse or other psychologically scarring trauma: these groups are also specially privileged.
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:55 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, ima call bullshit on the underprivileged having some special claim on bigotry. it's everywhere. rich fuckers got it too.
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:57 (eleven years ago) link
i think it's important to keep individual experience separated from our sense of general demographic realities
i think it's absolutely vital to do the exact opposite.
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:57 (eleven years ago) link
won't everyone think of the poor maligned jerks
looooool at all of this
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:58 (eleven years ago) link
i wasn't saying rich people weren't bigoted but just like, i don't know, the okc tumblr sexist dudes seemed to be misogynistic because they were embittered... their sense of being underprivileged, because unattractive, made their male privilege more attractive to them, and *this* is what is kind of, er, grotesque about their attitudes.... they are reactionaries.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Thursday, 11 April 2013 23:59 (eleven years ago) link
hmm @ darragh. hmmmmmmm.
you're messing with me, right? cuz individual experience is endlessly variable, while demographics realities are generally fixed (at any given moment, anyway).
― I have many lovely lacy nightgowns (contenderizer), Friday, 12 April 2013 00:00 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXShit8aEi0
― how's life, Friday, 12 April 2013 00:02 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i definitely agree with you contenderizer: it is impossible, from the outside, to say what someone's experience has been like, even if you can surmise that they have benefited from various forms of institutional privilege. that's the main thing that i have been trying, ineptly, to say on this thread.
― severely depressed robots are "twee" (Pat Finn), Friday, 12 April 2013 00:04 (eleven years ago) link
i'm not, contends, but i spose it depends on whether we're discussing a rule for
(i) justification of behaviour we revile normally but cheer on when the target is someone we've decided (in our perfection) is an overprivileged group
or
(ii) yknow a way to behave in general
― privilege as 'me me me' (darraghmac), Friday, 12 April 2013 00:04 (eleven years ago) link