privilege as a meme

I feel like negotiating privilege so as not to "____splain" is more about listening, and making sure that whatever you have to say is based on testimony from people actually living the issue. The "take this with a grain of salt" thing sounds really tedious and stultifying.

xp - yeah, the whole "lol, this is something only a few relatively privileged college students talk about" angle seems awfully myopic. all it really communicates is a limited range of experience.

basically the only people who ever use this word in earnest discussion are college ppl trying to one up each other by showing how grateful and worldly and learnéd they are in comparison to their entitled, unworthy peers.

― sleepingbag, Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:25 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is unfortunate if true, but i suspect it's not. well, maybe it's true on blogs or on the internet. or at college. but i *do* think you have to be pretty humble about it when u do get called. like, i think there's more than a little victimization in the mix if your reaction to being called out on your privilege is "you're just trying to one-up me & show off how grateful & worldly you are."

*called out

yeah... flopson, speaking as an internet friend, i feel like u could do well to check yr privs a bit here on ilx

― 乒乓, Tuesday, April 9, 2013 10:27 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not sure if this is a joke but if not i'd be curious to know what this is in ref to. it's been a while since the last time i've fp'd frogbs, tbh

well im mainly thinking about the time u defended that sexist complex article that was 'does your girl listen to too much rap' and u were all like 'lol guys its just joeks bruvs'

ah right, k. iirc i found like 6/10 of those to be pretty horrendous tbf

but ya i admit my post in the thread was a cop out. rap blogs were really annoying that week/month with all the chief keef stuff, think i was just p exasperated with all the self-righteous indignation, and putting that kind of energy into a complex listicle is such a scraping the bottle of the barrel

ah ok almost didn't post cos i doubt i have anything at all to gain here but wth
just know i am definitely not doing the whole long internet argument thing

literal lols at these posts btw. if this is what u think privilege is about, then idk, maybe go post on reddit or something

― 乒乓, Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:35 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if that is not what every discussion about privilege on ilx, including this one, has boiled down to, i will eat my (v. fancy) hat.

i don't disagree with many/any of the underlying ideas of talking about privilege -- essentially no, life isn't fair; one certainly can have many more or better opportunities depending on who, what gender, what color, what class, etc., as well as where they are; people have vastly different experiences, and so on; it's specifically the framing of it as a contest and the way the word is deployed, woo let's identify who is privileged/more privileged so we can tell them so, that i think drives all these conversations to shit. i mean, look, no doubt i take it personally + take offense to the way this word gets thrown around b/c i definitely identify with 'the privileged' (despite my many complexities :) ), as apparently a bunch of other people here do, i've been successfully labeled, and it seems to be a problematic and pejorative label... so now what? what do i do? what are the 'privileged' actually being told by that label? i'm not sure why part of this is that it is assumed that i am not aware of how lucky i am and need a word/label to tell me. i am pretty well aware, and definitely very grateful to be who i am all in all. so what else?

long story short, i guess if i feel privileged enough then maybe i have nothing useful to add in this sphere and i should just not read privilege threads? i'm definitely never going to reddit, but i'd be happy to not participate if the whole point of identifying privilege is to say that voices like mine have been too loud in the culture -- is that the point?

"privileged" is only a problematic/pejorative label if you... idk, have that coming? liek no one ever says "you're privileged and you should feel like shit about it, i just felt like saying that carry on", in almost every context i've ever seen ppl have used some variation of "check yr privilege" in response to someone who is acting in a way that makes them appear dickishly unaware of it

when you're being a shithead idk maybe ppl are giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you're simply unaware, the point is if you're already well aware then you wouldn't have done something to invoke that dreaded word anyway, but idk you're talking like you just walk down the street and ppl yell "PRIVILEGED" at you all the time

History of this phrase's use on ILX is surprisingly scant: Marc Loi was there first in 2009, in the last line of his his mindblowing "Can't Rape the Willing" essay ("check your privilege, because it may not always be what it seems," ominous), then two years pass with no uses before zachylon employs it to bitch about the 99% / Occupy movement and the rest is history.

please let's bring that back

brb leaving forever

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2C%20%22check%20your%20privilege%22&cmpt=q

i definitely identify with 'the privileged' (despite my many complexities :) ), as apparently a bunch of other people here do, i've been successfully labeled, and it seems to be a problematic and pejorative label... so now what? what do i do? what are the 'privileged' actually being told by that label?

i think you're missing the substance of the discussion in reducing it so entirely to the act of labeling people. sure, "privileged" sometimes gets used that way, as a cheap dismissal of unwelcome voices. that's the point at which further discussion becomes all but impossible, and it sucks. but good ideas always get put to bad use somewhere, and i think "privilege" remains a good idea. it's often invoked when discussing the ways in which our basic assumptions can reflect our cultural position, perhaps in ways we don't realize. i find that useful, though i don't always immediately welcome the criticism.

you ask "what do i do?" the only answer i can give is "think about it some." it's best not to dwell defensively on the idea that you've been labeled pejoratively. it's been pointed out that you're speaking and thinking from a position of relative privilege. no more, no less. if social justice matters to you, you might want to spend some time thinking about the implications.

ime "check your privilege" has usually been used as a sort of "the first step is admitting you have a problem" thing

also ime no one in the world says "check your privilege" anymore with any sincerity, once it caught on and became a joke buzzword (the big bump in H2's graph up there has to be like at least 70% ironic usage) ppl abandoned it, ppl i follow anyway, and this sentence is prob more relevant to the thread at hand than the first one

my friend lives in this punk house where people are hyper-aware of privilege, apparently the straight white guys who live there will often preface things they say with by saying "cis-male," as in, like, "take this with a grain of salt just coming from the most privileged pov possible." that seemed pretty crazy to me

― flopson, Tuesday, April 9, 2013 10:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol portlandia

Assumption #1: lower classes = activist types. Really, dude?

sorry, this wasn't clear - i was speaking from personal experience coming up with a bunch of activist type people in undergrad, who were mostly lower-middle class.

i think it is good not to be an asshole every day and the privilege analysis is good for that.

this, but. i think that while it's helpful to understand what privilege is, it's myopic to focus in on it to the point where you're prefacing your statements with "cis-male:" like who cares!

the problem to me is people thinking of their real personal relationships through various types of abstract structural lenses - of which "privilege" is the latest and greatest. prefacing your communication with superfluous acknowledgements and concessions like "cis-male says:" doesn't do anything to affect the actual content coming out of your mouth. much like how we know the "no offence" preface doesn't salvage an offensive statement, prefacing a privileged comment with "i'm privileged, but" doesn't help any either.

consciously choosing to ignore privilege for whatever reason is problematic. and sure, it's silly to say "privilege doesn't matter" cuz of course it does. to me, it's a little like the old "i don't see color" idiocy. me personally, i see color, lots, but i don't really care too much about it when it comes down to actual human beings i actually interact with. to me that's the important part?

this is a good thread i read the first thread of and i fully support lagoon in all endeavors. fin

i mean the end the end

i love laggoons here is one

this thread is a lagoon of privilege

*laps*

the problem to me is people thinking of their real personal relationships through various types of abstract structural lenses - of which "privilege" is the latest and greatest.

Right, but you do get that seeing it as 'abstract' is a form of privilege, right?

xp - yeah, the whole "lol, this is something only a few relatively privileged college students talk about" angle seems awfully myopic. all it really communicates is a limited range of experience.

I see your point if you mean that ideas or issues of privilege are a wide concern, but the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people.

It seems contradictory to the entire point of the concept to say "well x amount of underprivileged people may not use that word but we speak for them when we do."

the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people

this isn't true tho

maybe here on ilx yeah, but that's mostly bc that's the general population of ilx? and ppl here hardly even use it

the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people.

I'm tempted to say "But really that's not the case", and see how far we can go with a reality chain - but, is it the number or the composition of people using this that you think is the problem?

Just out of interest, whose experience is universal? Is that the person to whom we all ought to be deferring on message boards?

Yes, that is what anyone here is saying.

Lol i wish you'd put me on killfile, take me out of your misery

it has nothing to do with universality, at least i don't think anyone is suggesting it is

i think one of the big causes of confusion is that people tend to think it's supposed to be used sort of as a sum, like in that (fake) privilege calculator thing, or like it's a sliding scale. types of oppression are separate but they intersect -- it's more like, on issues of racism you 'defer' to someone who experiences racism, on issues of homophobia you 'defer' etc etc. on issues that involve the intersection of one or more oppression, the words of someone who experiences that intersection holds more weight than mine. i could read all the memoirs in the world and still not know what it's like to live life as a victim of oppressive institutions as much the people who do.

basically the idea seems to be "experience matters, refer to it"

Seems fair! maybe that's a better phrase than a jargon term like 'privilege' as it's used.

maybe jargon deserves its own thread but jargon words tend to evolve for useful reasons i think, e.g. they can save time rehashing concepts that people understand and agree on. like all words they can be used for stupid, but i wouldn't blame the words.

i think one of the big causes of confusion is that people tend to think it's supposed to be used sort of as a sum, like in that (fake) privilege calculator thing, or like it's a sliding scale. types of oppression are separate but they intersect -- it's more like, on issues of racism you 'defer' to someone who experiences racism, on issues of homophobia you 'defer' etc etc. on issues that involve the intersection of one or more oppression, the words of someone who experiences that intersection holds more weight than mine. i could read all the memoirs in the world and still not know what it's like to live life as a victim of oppressive institutions as much the people who do.

i agree entirely with this. but ime it's not used in the polite way you suggest.

I'm tempted to say "But really that's not the case", and see how far we can go with a reality chain - but, is it the number or the composition of people using this that you think is the problem?

the number and the composition. i've never heard the term used irl, ever. never heard it said. i live in one of the most underprivileged areas of london and i imagine if those around me are thinking negatively of me they'd probably think "posh cunt" rather than "privileged".

zach- thanks for the rundown, btw

i've never heard the term used irl, ever

Seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4

I mean the memeification of the word is dreadful and most of the people in the western world are privileged in some way but its use is hardly confined to an elite. Tony Pulis dropped it the other day.

sorry, of course i've heard it, i just mean irl you don't hear it often and not as a pejorative in the same way.

I mean the memeification of the word is dreadful and most of the people in the western world are privileged in some way but its use is hardly confined to an elite.

in terms of class i'd say it is confined to an elite.

i've read the tony pulis piece you're referring to matt. he's using the word privilege, you'd be using a shoehorn to make it the term used on ilx as i've seen it.

In a half time team-talk Pulis bawled out his team for their heteronormative cisgendered male privilege and pointed out that not everyone in the Arsenal team could share that.

ha

basically the idea seems to be "experience matters, refer to it"

― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:30 AM (2 hours ago)

zachylon otm. that's a big part of what i get from it, anyway. it's perhaps tempting to think that intellect, logic and common sense working in concert enable anyone to render their own verdict on any subject, so long as they're willing to put in some information-gathering time. when it comes to certain subjects, however, it may be best to render less and listen more - especially when talking to actual people about their actual experiences.

^ ...to the extent that we recognizes our own privilege and the way it shapes our perceptions. but also good advice in general.

There's a lot of point-missing going on here.

I, of course, blame the patriarchy.

Anyone who tries to tell me to check anything is going to have another kind of check coming to them, if you take my meaning, which if you're priviledged, you probably will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ4UFZmeenE

There's a lot of point-missing going on here.

if you disagree with people you should be specific.