Rolling 'this is sexist' thread

lol yeah forgot that little detail

p.s. lmao @ u if you don't think men AND women aren't routinely chewed out for being inappropriately attired in the workplace or when representing their employers off-site, professionals of a certain caliber are absolutely ruthless about that sort of thing.

don't get me wrong, professional dress codes aren't something i endorse but gimme a break with the faux-naif "what sort of monster would criticize a dude for not wearing a tie" line

is it really so inconceivable that, idk, many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

my fear is saying something offensive without realizing it due to my particular "privilege" (white, male, heterosexual, etc)-- i like to think i am pretty conscious about what i say and when but by the very nature of these things they can sneak up on you. i hope in those circumstances someone could bring it to my attention and my apology would be accepted.

it's a bit of a red-herring that there's some idea of a "thought police" or someone wanting to dictate or control other people's conversations. it's more about showing mutual respect and understanding and trying your damnedest to be inclusive.

this dude getting fired or not is up to his employer i think, but from what i can tell it doesn't seem like he was being very thoughtful or careful about his words. and in that particular environment that's an important skill.

ha you guys are...not this dense, i've posted here for like 5 years now, i know this for a fact.

the point of the analogy was to point out that no 1 cares about the "sanctity of tech conference guidelines", not to make a stealth men's rights assertion

all this hubbub about neckties is weird

so, what? is richards somehow at fault because she didn't realize that the conference guidelines are only there for appearances' sake, and that nobody is actually expected to abide by them? so, uh, shame on her for invoking them? what on earth

is it really so inconceivable that, idk, many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

If you aren't a complete dumbass, you know better than to do this; I am known as King Dick Joke on this board and I have never done this at any conference/training session I've attended, including ones where I've gone with coworkers who were my roommates at the time or coworkers who considered me to be close enough to invite to their kids' christenings.

I say this as someone who has engaged in inappropriate banter with coworkers of both sexes during lunch breaks or after work; said inappropriate banter always took place amongst a closed circle away from the general work environment and stopped at anyone's request; also, people frequently apologized if a joke crossed a line. There was an underlying respect and an understanding of each others' perspective that allowed us to take liberties in our humor with each other, and more importantly it would stop if it began to bother someone even if that someone wasn't the target. I don't see that situation as analogous to here; furthermore, there were other groups in the company who went WAY over the line in multiple ways, to the point where there's one dude in particular who to this day probably doesn't know that I consider him to be a racist monster and a dealbreaker to any professional situation I may consider in the future.

I am known as King Dick Joke on this board

(all of ilx silently nods in affirmation)

djp otm

There was an underlying respect and an understanding of each others' perspective that allowed us to take liberties in our humor with each other

Why don't you think this is exactly how the two dudes having a private conversation adjacent to Adria Richards felt?

having been refreshed on what large groups of developers are like, I am now kind of amazed that this didn't end up much worse

basically I watched a small group present an overview of a cool new project and several dudes kept asking them why they did things that way, why they didn't use this other superior technique that the questioner was familiar with, and whether they thought this project would actually work

it's a small miracle that anything resembling civil discourse happens at conferences

many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

If it were a professional conference, attended as part of one's professional job, then no, this is not an option. end of discussion.

At such a conference you are surrounded not by your work buddies, but by other conference attendees. This is blindingly apparent when you are sitting in a large conference room with hundreds of others. The barest comprehension of professionalism and collegiality screams that this is the wrong place for 'dongle' jokes.

Really?

Sry that was xxxpost.

Why don't you think this is exactly how the two dudes having a private conversation adjacent to Adria Richards felt?

amazing

Why don't you think this is exactly how the two dudes having a private conversation adjacent to Adria Richards felt?

Because they were doing it in a room full of people during a conference talk about making the tech industry more inclusive to women as opposed to in a tiny lunchroom with one table and a behind a closed door?

I understand K3vin's original point about the conference rules. I think k3vin misses the point, but I find some of these necktie responses bewildering.

K3vin's point: Why are people in this thread stressing the conference policy, when no one cares about conference policies, but what we really care about is sexual harassment.

My response to K3vin: People in this thread and elsewhere stress the conference policy, because sexual harassment policy is put in place to put everyone on an equal footing to create clear lines so as to avoid these situations, and protect people who would be the target of harassment. Harassment policy serves a very important purpose. This case is a perfect example of how the policy works. People can cite the policy. It protects everybody, including would-be perpetrators!

Has any ilxor been to this particular con?

a good friend of mine attended in either 2008 or 2009 when it was in chicago

was it remarkable in any way from other tech confs? i think the perl one takes place on a boat

that "everybody knows an Adria Richard article" is vile

**makes sexual jokes within earshot of dozens of people** THIS IS A PRIVATE CONVERSATION

xp: I think I got about halfway through it before I just couldn't take any more; I really felt like I needed a shower

I don't remember any particular issues with presentations or audiences that he mentioned, although we did briefly talk about one of the attendees he recognized -- she wasn't presenting, but I thought it was cool that he was at the conference since I'd used some sites she'd developed. Unfortunately, a lot of articles at the time were fond of dropping her dating history in. Definitely a sexist angle, but that wasn't really anything to do with the conference.

There was a craft brew (lol) party at the conference, I think.

I guess a certain website was overdocumenting her for a bit: http://gawker.com/leah-culver/

what the hell

(btw the writing and gossip involved in all this is about ten times more disgusting than dongle jokes)

I mean that article stops just short of baldly stating "woman tricks men into coding for her using her vagina"

gross

Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out? Is it sexist to point this out?

(btw the writing and gossip involved in all this is about ten times more disgusting than dongle jokes)

― I, rrational (mh), Wednesday, April 3, 2013 3:30 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this, this, this. Dongle jokes -- crossing a line, inappropriate, makes people feel uncomfortable, shouldn't be done. The stuff being written about Richards, otoh, evinces such shockingly virulent misogyny that it only drives home why she felt compelled to do what she did.

I think the wider angle was mostly "average programmer (because women can't be good at that, right) makes good business deals because she's dating tech scene dudes" which is straight-up bullshit because friends-of-friends in that scene help each other launch all kinds of crap all the time. But she's a woman, etc.

Sorry to track on to this from the pycon thing -- pycon was totally boring when my friend was there. Except the free beer.

btw I was referencing the article I linked when I said writing and gossip, not the events of 2013

also let's talk for a second about how a Gawker writer doing a hit piece on a woman who dated a former Gawker editor is not at all sketchy/suspect

ah ok. well what I said stands anyway.

I've met a few misogynist coders in my time. My company got rid of them as soon as they could. It sounds like this is what happened to the 'jokesters'. Chances are good the company knew they were shitheads, already wanted to fire them and saw their chance.

If she doesn't want to be famous, Culver might want to take a look at her relentless technosexuality, which more than hints at the acquisition of influence rather than intimacy as its goal.

I love how techno sexuality just links to another list of dudes she's dated.

Is it sexist to point this out? Perhaps, but not nearly as sexist as touting technical skills while sleeping your way to the top.

Everything about this article is truly disgusting.

relentless

it's really frustrating how the anti-adria-richards forces have managed to completely distort the facts of the case. i think it's been stated more than once on this thread that the two dudes were NOT having a private conversation that richards overheard (which, yes, would have been bad enough). she had turned around to talk to one of them and his friend (the guy who ultimately got fired) butted in with dongle jokes. she tried to redirect the conversation and he ignored her. that's when she got pissed.

I'm just glad that anonymous over at gawker had the courage to call this woman out on her sexism.

My understanding of the order of events based on both her the fired dude's words is that she was talking to one dude about dissatisfaction with a portion of the keynote talk and the guy who got fired butted in with the forking joke, which caused her to disengage; dude then went on to make the dongle jokes after she had bailed on the conversation (during the segment of the presentation when the speaker was talking about making tech more accessible/open to women).

So many words written about events that took place in less than two minutes

Big Time Technosexuality

straight-up bullshit because friends-of-friends in that scene help each other launch all kinds of crap all the time. But she's a woman, etc.

can I just otm this 6000 times over? the amount of backslapping, linking, retweeting, funding, plug-your-site-if-you'll-plug-mine, talk-at-your-conference-if-you'll-do-x-for-me that goes on between guys, and the second a woman is involved it's like "ohhh, geek slut everyone! look at the evil calculating bitch taking advantage with her mysterious woman ways which surely involve sex!"

(I think I've said before that I only realised years after dropping out of CS that all the guys were hanging out in each other's dorm rooms talking about assignments all the time, but the second a girl asks a question everyone says "look at that dumb bitch, fluttering her eyelashes so everyone else does her work for her" etc. and it doesn't seem to stop a decade after everyone's left university)

"forking joke"

What ultimately protects all these sexist shitheads is that they have specific technical skills that are in demand. If they are good enough coders someone will always hold their nose and hire them. This gives them a sense of protection, so they feel free to expose their vileness in public. They eventually believe that their coding skill and ability to find work proves their superiority and validates their stupidest ideas and beliefs.

P.S. Most of them are libertarians.

Wait was the guy who got fired Johnny dangerously?

aimless, that seems to apply to most intrinsic or specialised skills. i'm thinking about athletes.