Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

the video games industry should just stick to remaking tetris

this is an acceptable solution imo

narrative and worldbuilding are incidental in video games. that's why halo slash fiction literally doesn't exist. nobody on this planet except for maybe 3 people total have ever cosplayed. people only care about how fast their ping times are and whether or not they can pull off a 45-hit combo in marvel v. capcom 2.

i've seen sexist tetris though -- though i'd argue that's again borrowing from pinball cheesecake.

I would be down w more abstract and non-figurative games.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-games/id6014?mt=8

Don't have an iphone. Let's see EA spend tens of millions of dollars on an abstract game and I'll be there.

The top 10 retail video games in the United States in 2012:

1. Call of Duty: Black Ops II (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)
2. Madden NFL 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, Wii U)
3. Halo 4 (360)
4. Assassin's Creed III (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)
5. Just Dance 4 (Wii, 360, Wii U, PS3)
6. NBA 2K13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSP, Wii U, PC)
7. Borderlands 2 (360, PS3, PC)
8. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (360, PS3, Wii, PC)
9. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (Wii, 360, NDS, PS3, 3DS, PSV, PC
10. FIFA Soccer 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, 3DS, Wii U, PSP)
(Source: The NPD Group)

clearly abstract/non-figurative games do great

Clearly alot of people paid to see Transformers.

what is this transformers argument

Dollars earned != good content

lol so your answer to addressing issues of sexism/racism in the video game industry today is to plug your ears and play tetris... cool

I'm glad you wrote it out for me.

Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority characters

you guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument

also Closure is awesome re: abstract games; it's not even clear that the protagonist has a gender

Even if video games were purely a reflection of other aspects of culture, having a disproportionate number of them reflecting the most regressive parts of culture probably isn't desirable.

That list is why there aren't more games with female protagonists or protagonists of color.

Also it is a list entirely populated by sequels.

I mean, unless you only watch movies with guns, tits, and gangsters

oh god I've described half the audience for the top ten games listed

pretty sure there are people of color in Just Dance 4 #naturalrhythm

also lol at looking at a list that contains basketball, football and soccer games and having the first reaction be "why all the white people?"

lol

that's the first reaction because "acting ethnic" in a video game involves funny accents or stereotyped characters and basketball players in games don't talk, iirc

like, god forbid there be characters who are boring, normal people who are not white

my point in posting that list was that fully half of that list is dominated by narrative-driven gamers that heavily depend on worldbuilding to achieve their success, to spell it out

narrative worldbuilding and killing stuff

also lol at looking at a list that contains basketball, football and soccer games and having the first reaction be "why all the white people?"

Haha somehow I looked past all the non-narrative games on the list since they basically do not involve characterization, but this is a fair point.

putting aside the "macho posturing" of that list, is Assassin's Creed III the only one in that top 10 to have a protagonist of color?

xp My NBA2K13 MyCareer player "Mr. Clutch" would have to disagree with you, then slam his teammates at a press conference

Why is the top 10 list of games entering this conversation? Most of those don't really prove anyone's points

which btw are super clear

everyone's points, i mean

narrative is not something that's self-contained in literature/film/comics/tv, narrative is human experience related. you're being willfully naive here philip

Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority characters

you guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument

narrative is certainly self-contained in movies w/r/t video games when it is being advanced by cut-scenes, for example. Most games you can pretty much pick apart in this way leaving very little narrative left to call its own.

i make all my characters black gay women in the character creator so i have multiple tiers of roleplaying going on do u c

um

on an unrelated note, I'm going to be thinking through my ideas a few times before typing them into ilx for a while

narrative is certainly self-contained in movies w/r/t video games when it is being advanced by cut-scenes, for example. Most games you can pretty much pick apart in this way leaving very little narrative left to call its own.

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

this is both true and completely immaterial to this discussion

it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride, though apparently that arkham game decided to one-up its source material? lego batman seemed alright though.

appropriating cinematic narratives into video games

Games with linear plots or parallel linear missions that later reconcile to an endgame, which possibly has variations, are not necessarily comparable to cinema to a greater degree than they are to anything else! I mean, we aren't saying that books are sexist, so you can't blame video games based on books for being sexist. The idea that any particular medium can't determine it's own path because it's just a shadow of something else is stupid.

Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?

no, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage

Video games aren't under the shadow of anything, any more than movies are in the shadow of the written word

Man I am so sad that Ms. Pac-Man was an inferior game and was not at all successful

I think I just backslid on my idea to prethink my comments, but I will not back down on my support of Ms. Pac-Man.

Ms Pac-Man is clearly the best of the Pac-Man games

Yes!

"Pacman displays all the patho-obsessive characteristics that are the special achievement of the first generation peasant. Pacman does not live, he survives. Pacman does not know the freedom and enjoyment of the drift; he is locked in a Malthusian trap without cheat codes, doomed to struggle ad infinitum to overcome his hunger in the knowledge that the next meal will be even harder to acquire. To eat more is to be chased with added vengeance.

For the ghosts work does not exist, their quest to find Pacman and eat him is purely recreational. Failure is without consequence, the drift is theirs and their collective wandering strategies are an inspiration to every algorithmic psychogeographer. Their scatter-chase-repeat routine is a wonder in itself but their swagger in blue mode, when suddenly they are prey and may be eaten by their dinner, is the unchallenged masterpiece in the arsenal of experimental walking techniques. Again the ghosts do not encounter real harm when devoured, rebirth comes as a guarantee. The ghost in blue mode is in trickster mode, they are urging Pacman to eat the freaky corner fruits out of self-interest but also out of benevolence.

Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde are not attacking Pacman, evil is not a useful concept in their carefree existence. They are the Magister Ludi's of crazy cookie land, enticing the pupil to work harder and to move further, to new level-environments. It is not necessary to eat, it is necessary to travel."

I don't buy that games would necessarily be coarsened by the outside culture to the same extent without the prevailing influence of movies/tv/comics etc...

These are the top selling board games, for example:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Toys-Games-Board/zgbs/toys-and-games/166225011

So board games aren't immune to the kind of licensing/genre nonsense that dominate video games but just looking at it, it looks like they do a much better job at making board games qua board games at least on the top-seller level. (the kotaku list for best board games looked very different!)

confession: my favorite board game was the one based on pacman where you'd collect marbles in this pacman approximation that the designers solved the axis-orientation problem by having him eat through an orifice in its butt.

http://cardsagainsthumanity.com/

To be fair, Cards Against Humanity's offensiveness is anything but casual.

Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage

― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:28 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

just gonna quote this response again, because it is otm

i'm with you guys on the inception matroska-ing of cultural shackles but to say they're equivalent or have the same influence at each layer...

Not really wanting to jump into this debate, but I thought this was pretty OTM:

it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride

Counter-example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_(series)

FWIW, I basically am in line with DJP's take here but sort of buy into Philip's initial statement, which I read not as ''games shouldn't borrow from cinema or comics'' as ''games shouldn't borrow from trash cinema and trash comics,'' which I think they kind of do, a lot. Superhero books have come a long way and there are a lot of talented creators consciously trying to fight the tide, but the tide is still there. I've read more stuff about gender biases (the way star artists are permitted/encouraged to draw women's bodies, the women in refrigerators issue, tokenism of female membership on superteams, the sheer numbers of men vs women working in the industry etc.) but I doubt the industry/community would do well on race either, see for example the shocking fan resistance to the idea of a non-white Spiderman in either comics or movies.

Again, there's been tons of progress! The internet brings out the worst in fandom but it also means there's been a visible push-back against all of this stuff. I would like to believe that today's male white geek is a little more self-aware than his equivalent twenty years ago, and that non-white non-male geeks find more material that doesn't alienate them. But there's still so much in geek-genre comics that should wither and die there rather than remain a continuing source of video game material. I'm sure that's true of other media as well but I do think comics are relatively speaking, behind the curve, if not AS behind as games.

(Outside superheroes it's another rodeo entirely. Would love to see a Dykes To Watch Out For game!)