― george gosset (gegoss), Sunday, 22 September 2002 12:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
We've had record labels sending us both radio cuts and 'normal' versions of singles, with the only difference being that the radio one would sound flat and horrible. As for getting our own releases on the radio... well, 'not compressed enough' was a handy excuse occasionally trotted out.
― Marinaorgan (Marina Organ), Sunday, 22 September 2002 13:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
A feeble one. That's what radio stations have compressors for, surely.
― David (David), Sunday, 22 September 2002 14:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
Your definition of 'listenable', then, seems to approach my definition of shite.
in other words: mixing things to sound as good as possible on radio play ISN'T INHERENTLY BAD YOU FOOLS
It is when what you are doing is compressing a record to the point that you are compromising its quality- in this case its dynamic range... (the range from the 'lowest' to the 'highest' sound)..The music for your radio is going to sound like shite whether it is produced for a high end audio system OR for radio... since the output is shite.
But the trend continues because for the most part, the public listens to shite, on a shite system or in the car.. while talking on their cell phone, making reservations for their Tai Bo class....
Oh and related to another post.. the term 'compression' as it is used here has nothing in common with the way that MP3s are 'compressed"-
― insectifly (insectifly), Monday, 23 September 2002 16:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
(I'm lazy)
― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 12:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― insectifly (insectifly), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― insectifly (insectifly), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
http://www.informatik.fh-hamburg.de/~windle_c/e_index.html.. such as "Warning: Pink can be dangerous for health!"
Thanks for the synopsis ....
― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 14 March 2003 15:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
----
LOUD AS POSSIBLE AT ALL TIMES
The exciting crescendoes get flattened out...the drums lose their impact and punch...nothing "jumps out of the mix" anymore...nothing can build up to a climax because there is nowhere left to go...isn't this crazy?!?!
It is a pity that in the past few years this race to have the loudest CD possible - sacrificing dynamics and rich sound - is spreading even to artists whose CDs will never be played on the radio nor ever have to "compete" with loud-as-possible commercial products...not to mention that more compression on a CD doesn't make it "louder on the radio" anyway, but that's a different story...
The technology used to make our standard 16 bit, 44.1 CD continues to improve: better A/D converters, better bit rate and sample rate converters, quantum leaps in recording software quality etc... thus making it possible to produce better sounding CDs than ever before. The trend for hypercompressing the final master in order to make it as loud as it can possibly get means that most of these sonic advantages - which can give us better sounding CDs - are simply thrown out the window in favor of LOUDness. (Yes there are some kinds of music which do work best when the whole mix is flattened out dynamically, and I am a big fan of lo-fi and wrecked sounds...but that's done for musical reasons, not simply out of fear that your CD won't be the loudest in the CD changer. )
Compression is a great thing. It can be used to create very cool sounds and can help make the sound more "electrified" and exciting, it can make an ordinary sound into something completely new and strange. The problem today is overdoing the compression of the final mix for the "unmusical" reason of making it as loud as possible...only so it can "compete" with other CDs which have sacrificed sonic quality for sheer loudness. Artists, recording engineers, mastering engineers and producers have to start standing up for better sound as opposed to running the sonic equivalent of a steamroller over the music in order to flatten it out simply to make it as loud as _______(fill in the blank loud CD).
I could go on and on about this problem and why I think it is stupid and sad, but mastering engineer Bob Katz has already written some excellent articles on the subject:Digital Domain (click on "Articles", then "Compression".)Here is another good article by Rip Rowan on the same subject:Over the Limit. This guy is obviously a very big Rush fan, so put up with his glowing comments about them because he uses their albums to clearly demonstrate the increasing problem to very good effect.
Bob Drake, December 2002
― dleone (dleone), Friday, 14 March 2003 15:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 1 October 2006 07:14 (seventeen years ago) link
― Eppy (Eppy), Sunday, 1 October 2006 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― These Robust Cookies (Robust Cookies), Monday, 2 October 2006 05:44 (seventeen years ago) link
Like the Jazz/Classical section in your Virgin megastores?
― eh (fandango), Monday, 2 October 2006 07:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 2 October 2006 07:40 (seventeen years ago) link
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 October 2006 08:13 (seventeen years ago) link
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 October 2006 08:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― eh (fandango), Monday, 2 October 2006 08:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 2 October 2006 09:06 (seventeen years ago) link
Because itd be funny to compare that to like, the new Bon Jovi if Bon Jovi actually was LOUDER.
― Period period period (Period period period), Monday, 2 October 2006 17:52 (seventeen years ago) link
― winter testing (winter testing), Monday, 2 October 2006 19:23 (seventeen years ago) link
Flicked thru Uncut in the newsagents and their's an article on this issue. SOUTHALL TAKES THE DAD ROCK MARKET!
― acrobat, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:40 (sixteen years ago) link
Where I lead, IPC follows. TOOK THEM A YEAR.
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:10 (sixteen years ago) link
wow i fucked up there and their there.
― acrobat, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:12 (sixteen years ago) link
You certainly did.
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:13 (sixteen years ago) link
It'd be better if you'd fucked up they're and their there, tough.
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:14 (sixteen years ago) link
What a cunt I am.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1878724.ece
Whole lines of that are lifted from Imperfect Sound Forever.
There's also this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/news/newsbeat/galleries/1593/1/#gallery1593
― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 4 June 2007 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link
article is slightly more telegraphed & technically incomprehensible, but it gets it's main point across
also good to see the times cover that story about the consumer's personal data getting watermarked in those 'non-DRM' files
― Milton Parker, Monday, 4 June 2007 21:31 (sixteen years ago) link
fig 1
pavement - summer babe (winter version) 1992
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1125/530522654_2611bab03f_o.jpg
― acrobat, Monday, 4 June 2007 22:38 (sixteen years ago) link
fig 2.1
the hold steady - stuck between stations 2006
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1089/530522686_8b81c63f4c_o.jpg
fig 2.2
the hold steady - chips ahoy! 2006
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1013/530522668_b28cfe6cc2_o.jpg
― acrobat, Monday, 4 June 2007 22:40 (sixteen years ago) link
fig 3
ame - fiori
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1062/530536134_4f59fb4151_o.jpg
― acrobat, Monday, 4 June 2007 22:49 (sixteen years ago) link
To what extent do the complaints about loudness/compression apply with vinyl releases of albums in the past decade or so? How often are different mixes used for vinyl? Do vinyl releases seem to have better dynamics than their CD counterparts (despite the limitations of the medium), or are they just not as loud overall (since they can't be)?
I'm trying to think of examples I know of. The Fall's Marshall Suite, pretty darned loud on CD (in a pleasing way, to me at least) is actually also quite loud on vinyl. But since vinyl isn't generally made for commercial radio stations to play from and since it is in some ways an audiophile format these days (heavy vinyl pressings never used to be so ubiquitous, anyway), one would expect LPs to be as well-mastered as possible.
Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere.
― eatandoph, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 06:20 (sixteen years ago) link
i have personally noticed from doing transfers from vinyl that a lot of vinyl is fairly heavily compressed. not quite to the levels of many cds nowadays, but way way louder than most 80s and early 90s compact discs. compression is a lot more important for vinyl mastering to help keep the audible surface noise relatively low.
― electricsound, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 08:01 (sixteen years ago) link
the guardians take on all this
― mark e, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 21:26 (sixteen years ago) link
today on the current our local public station which plays mostly indie rock, they played some band called the Fratellis (sp?)
it struck me just how horrible it sounded. It's really bizarre, especially when I turned up the car stereo, everything gets this very unpleasant quality...really hissy...the symbols and the vocals are audibly hitting this weird "ceiling" (sorry I don't know the technical terms)...also I've been involved in mixing a few records and we always think about "Front to Back" depth, the idea of not just right-to-left stereo panning but a depth to the mix, and there is NONE here...everything is on this same flat plane...then when i got to work i listened to an old Stax Delaney & Bonnie record w/booker t and the gang as the band....it's amazing just how much BETTER, more human and pleasing to the ear everything sounded....songs aside, just the quality of the sound was better to listen to...
― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 21:32 (sixteen years ago) link
also, i'm not surprised to see that hold steady record on there, that new one sounds atrocious. same w/the third strokes record in comparison to the first and second.
That Guardian blog piece really upsets me.
― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 21:46 (sixteen years ago) link
it upsets me too (over-compressed CDs don't seem to bother those people at that live concert!) but it's got a point
recorded music is traditionally engineered to sound best on the most popular playback system of its day. 78's sound horrible on a Technics turntable, but play them on a horn and it sounds pretty great. 60's 7" singles have no bass and a shrill top end, but play them on one of those portable 7" turntables with a built-in speaker and they just belt right out. 70's album rock sounds incredible on hi-fi systems, 90's CDs sound pretty great, and... hyper-compressed music sounds better on an iPod (at the expense of those masters sounding good on a home stereo, but... who cares)
it's worth mentioning again -- anyone presented with a louder signal in an A/B 30-second listening test will choose the louder signal, even if it's incredibly distorted -- in fact usually the distortion sounds like pure energy and is preferable, and many of today's engineers are not being _forced_ to compress or limit, they are intentionally introducing that energy into their songs. to them it is irrelevant that most people over 20 can't listen to more than 11 minutes of it without burning out -- people who want to listen to albums these days are in the minority, and they're going to be told they're old if they try to speak up
I'm surprised this pushback didn't come sooner actually
― Milton Parker, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 21:58 (sixteen years ago) link
I accept that, but, for instance, the new Electrelane sounds a damn site better even on cheapo headphones and an iPod than The Good The Bad & The Queen; the LCD Soundsystem similarly sounds better, more exciting, moe involving, than the Simian Mobile Disco; the Electrelane and LCD aren't quiet, they're just more natural, more preicse, more detailed.
I dunno. Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting for a cause no one else even knows exists, let alone cares about. Which is the case...
― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:09 (sixteen years ago) link
I do almost all my listening from my ipod through Grado SR60s with most files ripped at 192. All these sonic issues definitely still exist in this scenario. Though maybe not so much if I was using the comes-with earbuds.
― Jon Lewis, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:13 (sixteen years ago) link
Just off Portapros the issues exists. Bundled earbuds, maybe not...
― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:21 (sixteen years ago) link
Was in an HMV recently, new Arctic Monkeys album being played - sounded atrocious, as if the music (which I like) was being immersed forcibly in a bucket of water; would that be an already heavily compressed signal being further compressed courtesy of the in-house DJ systems ... ?
― Neil Willett, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:25 (sixteen years ago) link
Possibly, but just as likely a really shitty in-house Bose system that sounds shitty anyway and is probably fucked from over-use at loud volumes. The system in our local Virgin Megastore used to be utterly intolerable at anything above 'quiet' volume, such was the atrocious state of the speakers.
― Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:26 (sixteen years ago) link
Wow that Guardian blogger is a complete ignoramus & blatantly misses the point.
― Pashmina, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:40 (sixteen years ago) link
and... hyper-compressed music sounds better on an iPod (at the expense of those masters sounding good on a home stereo, but... who cares
yeah i disagree totally...the delaney & bonnie album i just mentioned i was listening to on ipod/earbuds and the fratelli's track was in the car...it's the quality of how the instruments sound, the character of the song, not a volume thing...
yeah that guardian thing was horrific.
i have a friend who masters records professionally, and he says there is a lot of pressure from some accounts to master louder, which he resists as much as he can.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:44 (sixteen years ago) link
her main point is 'music sounds fine to me, and you guys sound old complaining about this'
slightly unrelated anecdote -- when missy's 'under construction' came out, I brought it over to my step-nephew's house who was a huge fan and I mean a huge fan. he asked if he could rip it, I said 'oh sure'. he put it in iTunes and pre-screened the album, listening to the first ten seconds of each track, and if a track didn't grab him in ten seconds, he unchecked it -- didn't even rip it. each track had _ten seconds_ to make an impression or else he didn't even want to come across it again later.
that's how important the first ten seconds of a track has become for these KIDS these days
and part of me sympathizes, the flood of free music coming in is so vast part of me understands the urge towards pre-screening before the thing even reaches your iPod -- make your quick decision now. but these listening habits are precisely what over-compression is attempting to overcome. you're definitely not alone and I really appreciated your article, Nick, it was the first one coming from a music-listener standpoint and not an audio-engineering magazine editorial or message board -- I think you should continue to state the importance of how people who like to listen to albums, or listen to _anything_ for more than 30 minutes are getting shafted. but you are going to sound old if you don't anticipate the counter-arguments, which range from very well thought out to 'you sound like an old man'
― Milton Parker, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:52 (sixteen years ago) link
That's one of the recurring problems with this issue: people don't actually follow the description of what's happening, so they just pretend to understand by turning it into some other issue they know how to feel about. The comments box for Nick's Stylus article on this was occupied by at least one person who kept framing this as an analog vs. digital debate; plenty of people who comment on it seem to think it's just a strict and simple issue of loudness (or, worse, an "old people don't like loud music" issue). It's actually equally ridiculous for people to say "oh well, the kids these days don't seem to mind it," because the adults don't follow its existence enough to mind it, either. But what you do find is that anyone who actually pays attention to these things and understands the complaint -- in all age ranges, in all styles of music, just anyone with some knowledge of the topic at all -- sees the problem, even if they don't think it's a huge one yet.
― nabisco, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:53 (sixteen years ago) link
I am young & I support your cause completely Nick. Records sound horrible these days.
― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:54 (sixteen years ago) link
And Milton your step-nephew is mental. Why couldn't he just rip the songs, listen to them later, and delete them (or just not listen to them) later if he didn't like them? I say this as a "kid these days."
― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 22:55 (sixteen years ago) link
Format conversion, dithering and compression are different beasts than "dynamic range compression". Still, an interesting article.
I had a WTF moment when I ripped Youtube audio for a DJ set and decided to tweak the EQ in Logic. I was surprised at how muffled the track sounded compared to the other songs. Flipping on the frequency analyzer, it seems that Youtube audio contains NO audio information above 15 kHz.
― mac and me (Ówen P.), Friday, 24 February 2012 22:51 (twelve years ago) link
ha, i did the same thing recently. did you use it? i overdubbed some tambourine and lasers.
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 24 February 2012 22:53 (twelve years ago) link
Smart! No, nothing as cool as that, I used a gentle plug-in called Vintage Warmer, which simulates tape saturation. It didn't *really* do the trick, but I went with it.
Then I e-mailed the friend who'd played the track for me originally and asked him for a copy of the CD version.
(The track was "Jon E Storm" by Dog Ruff. Good track! I don't even know where it came from, some German electroclash compilation.)
― mac and me (Ówen P.), Friday, 24 February 2012 22:58 (twelve years ago) link
here's the one i used: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzQ_xGsxgvs
but since the mix isn't yet, you inspired me to get a legit copy, so thanks!
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 24 February 2012 23:05 (twelve years ago) link
WHOA! Sounds muddy as anything, what a mess. (20% suspicious that the problem might be in the mix entire.)
― mac and me (Ówen P.), Friday, 24 February 2012 23:24 (twelve years ago) link
I mean, his ssss's are all there but Magnolia sounds like she's shouting in the basement; the drum machine and high end on the sawtooths are non-existant, etc. Youtube audio! Fuggedaboutit.
― mac and me (Ówen P.), Friday, 24 February 2012 23:25 (twelve years ago) link
i think it might be a radio rip too - i downloaded an mp3 that sounds waaaay better.
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 24 February 2012 23:27 (twelve years ago) link
https://gist.github.com/kylemcdonald/1fab024c9878106b486deb1a26bc2079
http://i.imgur.com/UoQIzG8.png
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 8 August 2017 15:14 (six years ago) link
the tempo plot is super interesting btw
http://i.imgur.com/0wNMcw9.png
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 8 August 2017 15:15 (six years ago) link