Bashir's Michael Jackson circus......

I also don't think he's capabale of enough calculation to actually change his appearance/body for the sake of keeping others at bay - I think he feels cut off from them, helplessly, due to identity he has to live with day fter day. Which is why the company of children, children he can trust, is what he seeks out...innocent fun ike climibing trees and starting food fights (careful, don't hit the shnozz! it'll fall in the mashed potatos!) is what fulfills him...and the sexual feelings he experiences towards the children, if he does at all, are unconscious.

You know, thats how many fetishes and hang-ups start: wanting something so bad. Wanting to BE it. Thinking you NEED t, then realizing even your BODY craves it. Being in love with an inanimate object, or concept, you have such a strongly emotional issue with (for him, it's childhood) --> in the psyche things can get twisted, and you start desiring the object/concept in a sexual manner, without even realizing it, since its attainment is supposed to emotionally satisfy you on such a deep level in the first place. Emotions/sexuality, you know the foggy connections. It's a wonder how the mind functions, or dysfunctions.

I could almost attest in terms of first-person experience on how some fetishes work this way, but since I'm one of the least-well-known regular posters on here, I'm not going to break the imagined spell just yet =)

It seemed clear that the accusations of paedophilia really really bother him. He looked so angry and distraught when he was being asked about that. I would imagine he did the program to try and make people see him in a different light.

I just hated the way they moralized about him. Like everyone in America doesn't have a Peter Pan complex. Like every other celebrity hasn't had too much plastic surgery. Bashir was asking him about having surrogate children as if it was a bizarre crime. Kept going on about how he likes to sit in a tree and think as if this was outrageous.

I don't know. I'm speaking as someone born in the mid '70s, and obviously I didn't witness Jackson 5-mania firsthand -- still, I don't get the impression that race was ever a huge stumbling block in MJ's career path. It could just be a personal hangup he has, not any specific career move.

Again I agree to an extent Mark, although I'm not at all sure whether that's because he's testing the boundaries of his reality by getting gradually closer and closer to the traffic ; or because he's craving the oblivion of having one of those great big lorries finally splatter him all over the motorway; or because he's started believing that he controls the traffic and the lorries can't hurt him.

Some more concrete explanations for his child-fetish:

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)

No. I know the traditional response to something like this is supposed to be [something like!] "Martha Graham!?" but I wouldn't know who it is, i just don't think he's the greatest the world has ever seen, despite how good he is. Or was. Take away the moonwalk, and how unique are his moves?

Not that uniqueness is anything significant i pop-dancing, but even in regards to traditional forms of hoofing around, he couldn't win a dance-off with Astaire. And doesn't his nose have an increased chance of falling off these days, when he performs ?

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)"

Of course if he believes any of those things (bearing in mind that the "children" we saw on the programme / we're talking about appear to be aged between about 8 and 14) then he really *IS* naif!

How many financially savvy, sexually aggressive, Jacko-bashing eight-year-olds do you know?

That's what I figure Mark - which must means that at certain times of the day at least (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say *on some level*) he must be fully conscious that a great deal of his behaviour is at very least inappropriate.

I think this is true, and what I was trying to say anyway. Him believing this does not make him naive, on the contrary it's closer to pragmatism, really.

I don't know many who aren't capable of swindling someone out of money or being aggressive and predatory under the right circumstances - and I'd be prepared to bet that I don't know a single one who doesn't know who Michael Jackson is!

Five bucks is not a million dollars.

I caught the tail end of a documentary about a paedophile ring the other night. This could be a description of one of the men arrested - it was clear his view of what he had done was completely at odds with what the vast majority of people would think about it.

recognising that most people aren't going to be happy with the idea of a single adult male sharing his bed with a succession of young children probably ranks slightly above recognising that you shouldn't play on the motorway or stick your fingers in electrical sockets, as a basic survival skill if nothing else!

He's very very rich. He doesn't need to pay much attention to what anyone else thinks of his behaviour.

It might be to an eight year old! ;~)

Well, it works better for me than the assumption that everyone else in the world is entirely one-dimensional.

It's not proof that you aren't one, either. In the case I mentioned, the man arrested had taken part with others in some pretty horrific sex crimes, but he didn't see them as crimes, or even as being wrong. The outrage was a result of his being (as he saw it) persecuted for his "innocent" love of pre-pubescent children.

I think it's a fairly common pattern for some people to do things the rest of us would find reprehensible, and for them not even to recognise that their behaviour is wrong (see Ernest Saunders and the Guinness case for a less emotive example).

A great many 8 years olds, when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, will give you a look of wide-eyed innocence and say something along the lines of "what?".

Most of them do, however, do know that they shouldn't be pinching cookies.

Yes he does, since other people liking him is what made him rich.
At first, I withheld judgement of his sleep-overs, but I think he does have a problem and most likely is molesting people.
I tried to put myself in his position and give him the benefit of the doubt. So, I love children. I think sharing my bed is wholesome and forms a deep bond with a child (stay with me here).
But, after I got any grief for having children in my bed, after it caused my career to disintegrate, after I was investigated for my activities, I would come to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. Sure, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but it's just too much of a hassle. After all, it's not like I need to sleep with them.
By MJ continuing to sleep w/kids after all the trouble its caused him, it shows he can't stop and leads me to believe it's not innocent.

I'm not sure I share this belief, however I really can't believe that MJ could have been in any doubt that a great many people would reach this conclusion

"(Once again, he didn't actually say he slept in the same bed with the kids.)"

Actually, as Jody Beth rightly pointed out earlier, he did specifically say that Macaulay and Kieran Culkin used to sleep one on either side of him. I'm not sure he actually stipulated whether they did so in a bed, on the floor or halfway up a tree but then, I don't think *where* they did so is really the issue.

"Yes he does, since other people liking him is what made him rich."

In fact he is rich - and in trouble - as a result of very, very desperately wanting people to like him.

Having surrogate children in itself is not a crime. Maintaining that the mothers of these children "gave" those children "as a gift" to him, and that he "snatched" the second one "still covered in the placenta" and ran because he "didn't want to hear anything bad" is pretty much bizarre to the fuckin' letter. Did you watch the footage when he was trying to feed the baby? Did you watch him during the footage at the zoo? I think one would be very hard-pressed to call him model parent.

"Kept going on about how he likes to sit in a tree and think as if this was outrageous."

Ya gotta admit......it's pretty fuckin' weird though, eh? When was the last time *YOU* climbed a tree?

Yes he did. I have the tape. Shall we go over it together?

"I climbed a mountain recently (the base of it, anyway). Why is one acceptable and the other not?"

Lots of adults regularly climb mountains therefore it's seen as acceptable behaviour for an adult. Relatively few adults regularly climb trees therefore (unless they happen to be tree surgeons) it tends to be seen as a bit weird.

I'm not saying it's right; I'm certainly not saying it's logical; I'm not even saying that the world mightn't be a better place (hey, isn't there a song in there somewhere?) if a few more adults learned to lighten up a bit and climb the ocasional tree; but nevertheless I do think you'll find it's the current "norm." in our society.

How generous can Mr Jackson be to his little friends and their parents, I wonder?

Maybe 4 months ago. Its kinda fun, mainly just to see if you are limber enough to still do it.

What is weird about MJ is that he actually makes a point of regularly climbing trees, which few adults do. And he clearly does't do it for the physical challenge like mountain climbers.

Also, how about comin' up with some new dance moves, eh?

Absolutely not - it's merely infinitely less likely to reach a prosecution

"Deteriorating before our eyes" I buy completely: the child molesting stuff I just don't. It basically boils down to "He climbs trees: burn the witch!"

My children are not allowed out of the Skinner box.

http://sfgate.com/gallery/pod/

"Warrant Issued for Jackson's Arrest" - 751 related stories