A question about climate change/global warming.

interesting!

follow up information to all those attacks against Gore over the last two day, from the " Tennessee Center for Policy Research" to every rightwing radio show and blogger out there

I suspect the biggest reason is that too many people have been preaching catastrophe from too many angles for too long. People are incurious about all sorts of subjects that could be deemed vital or essential. Picking "humans cause global warming" as a topic is really kind of pointless, unless you happen to be a big believer in it. If it's your dogma, then it suddenly it's unreasonable that others don't share your enthusiasm, wonder, or abject fear. Abortion, Iraq, Putin whoring himself around the Middle East, poverty, saving the whales...everyone's got a cause that someone else doesn't care about.

And really, you can't blame people for being at least a little bit jaded, non-plussed, or even cynical on this topic.

Ah......sure I can.

......so we're only capable to worry about one cause?

we can have as many causes (and crisis) as we want. Some have many, some have few. People have jammed their heads in the sand for eons for a variety of issues.

But then why choosing to jam their heads with such an energetic response against it?

Instead of consulting a message board of what amounts to like minded people on this subject, maybe it would be more productive to sit down with these people and ask them why it is they think the way they do. That way, you wouldn't have to speculate. Maybe it's your approach to the subject that makes them wave you off. Maybe they'd be willing to consider your perspective on different terms. Are you out to change their mind or simply expose them because you think they are idiots? How is it "energetic" to merely refuse to consider possibilities of humans causing global warming? Sounds pretty passive to me.

Ouch!

I'm consulting a message board right now, because I'm at home, and the two people who live in this house have questions, and y'all MIGHT have some insight.

I do not argue with these people. I am calm and non-judgemental with them. I ask them questions. The thing that always gets me , though, is a lack of willingness to read something, or watch something, etc. I get along with these people. We talk in a friendly manner about all kinds of things everyday.

I have asked them why they're so bitterly opposed to the concept, and they usually have no answer except "It's a bunch of bull!", as if they'd rather not discuss it unless we're in agreement that it is a bunch of bull.

Dan, please don't project those nasty traits onto me.

(Am I comming across in a nasty way on this thread?)

In other words, I don't bring the topic up. Someone will mention how it's all bunk, and I'd say something like "it seems a reasonable conclusion to come to, given all of the scientific data." And THEY'LL go off. I stay calm, but ask them about their logic, and they'll mention that Al Gore's fat or its cold outside today.

This is defferent from my own experience, I rarely come across any denial of global warming / climate change. What I do come across is a large amount of indifference. The mental link has yet to be made between ongoing problem/possible solutions I can implement. Still, in a country where our own PM seems to be of the opinion that scientists will come up with something to sort it all out, this is hardly surprising.

I'm not trying to project those traits on you peepee and I'm sorry if you thought I was.

I'd say it sounds like the people you are referring to probably think that the issue is more partisan than scientific. They probably don't think much of Al Gore, they may not trust what he has to say, they may resent him being a celebrity for his cause, etc. Like Matt said, they may be predisposed to be indifferent towards climate issues and therefore see environmentalists as a bunch of paranoid scolds. Environmental issues have long been polarizing, with both sides being dismissive of the other to the point of losing any sort of healthy skepticism.

Maria - yes it is hip for boys to darn socks! At least in the circles I run in. Even better if they make their own period clothing. (Alas, I will never win such a boy over with my homemade ball gowns, but I am a pretty good cook for a student!)

I don't know the reasons for totally shutting off to the idea of global warming, and I'm afraid any speculation I could provide would sound horrendously insulting and condescending.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb0305awj.jpg

Algore is fat lol

Here's another reason, when the paper of record publishes bullshit hit pieces on Al Gore and his movie, by people who've done the same thing previously and been found wrong for it.

More detail here:

Bill Broad took to the pages of the paper of record to establish that there is significant concern in the scientific community about the accuracy of Gore's movie. To do so, he trotted out scientific outliers, non-scientists, and hacks with discredited arguments. In at least two cases (Pielke Jr. being a scientist and the NAS report contradicting Gore) he made gross factual errors. As for the rest, it's a classic case of journalistic "false balance" -- something I thought we were done with on global warming. I guess when it comes to Al Gore, the press still thinks it can get by on smear, suggestion, and innuendo.

And also what happened when they tried to attack the study Al cites about the 900+ peer-reviewed research papers supporting climate change.

That's the thing; b/c it's so political now, plenty of people have such vested stakes in their positions, and absolutely cannot admit that those Dirty Fucking Hippies are right, and that fat communist Algore actually knows his shit. So they cannot accept actual facts and cling to any life raft that keeps them from drowning in their own sewage, e.g. "The Great Global Warming Swindle". Facts alone don't set you free, since humans are so easily able to reject them.

interesting evangelical split on this issue - story up on CNN about it

thing i don't get is wtf do the global-warming-is-bullshit people think the global-warming-is-fucking-us-all-and-mostly-done-by-humangs people are getting out of it? by denying it the former get to live their lives seeing the world as a resource and no more, get richer, whatever, but what do the latter get out of not denying it? some obv retorts - not answers - spring to mind but first, what do you think?

that we're communists who hate america and capitalism and the free market and want us all to live in sod huts and covered wagons and eat tofu. This is more or less what rightwinger columnists say, almost verbatim.

Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.
The world was created in six days, less than 7000 years ago.
Tax cuts are a cure for deficits.

Clearly, these people are hard-to-convince skeptics.

In fact, when some of 'em are pushed hard enough(like the CEI/AEI folks on that Thom Hartmann has on his show), they almost all revert to talking about how Kyoto will bankrupt the U.S. The equation comes down to that particular instance, as if there was one and only one particular way to go about it, and that way would be Bad for America, so we can't do anything. It almost always comes down to them holding that it's not economically possible to change how fucked up the system is right now, so status quo uber alles.

That and inertia is a bitch to overcome with people and industrial types not known for their adaptability or openness to new ideas.

"Market idolatry" is another good term for it.

jeezus, kingfish. you sound pretty reactionary and defensive.

this issue is absolute dogma for some people, a nearly prophetic belief where anyone who's not on board with the apocalypse is a "denier." Is that what science has become?

You're projecting again, and using the problems you have with a few of the adherents to try to discredit the phenomenom itself. Using religious language on people who don't hold the knowledge thru relegious teachings is the same shit that fundie creationists do, screeching around about "Darwinists."

who's doing the projecting here?

Nice try.

i think "what more can i do?" a lot of the time. I find it hard not to be smug, coz i look down the list of things in the "how to be greener" list and I think "well, i'm doing ALL of those already and have been for years".

like use yr less for example. I have no driver's licence; I will never have a driver's licence, end of.

i could fly less I suppose, but the most I've ever flown in a year is three return trips in 2005, last year it was two, likely to be two this year. From 1970-1990 inclusive it was none at all, same again from 1992 to 1995 inlcusive.

emsk - that's exactly what I've been wondering; there seems to be a bit of a backlash at the moment, that C4 documentary has meant a few tabloids feeling bold enough to run pieces trashing the whole idea. Admittedly I don't really rate the intellectual credentials of the Mail, Brian Reade and Richard Madeley but the worrying thing is that these twats have an audience. The one which really got me was a Mail leader article about how "they" want "us" to change "our lifestyles" for "no good reason." It's like refusing to go out of your way to buy dinosaur repellent when there's a herd of Apatosaurs bearing down on you.

The thing is, I'm not going to pretend to understand the situation fully, I doubt I am well-enough informed to win a debate with a hard-core climate change denier (purely because I don't have any facts at my disposal to counter their cherry-picked ones); but there's clearly enough evidence to convince me to alter my lifestyle as much as I can. I'm not being particularly inconvenienced, and I'm certainly not doing any more harm, so where's the problem?

Matt, you could always start here. A critique written by Sir John Houghton, ex Met Office Chief Exec who campaigns against climate change from a Christian viewpoint.

http://www.jri.org.uk/news/Critique_Channel4_Global_Warming_Swindle.doc

Ta, I was listening to their arguments and think that it sounded like absolute rubbish but I couldn't prove why. See, I don't doubt the existence of climate change, and I don't doubt the magnitude of the problem. I remember when that documentary was screened a channel 4 rep got torn aprt on the radio (Today, I think), and the main thrust of his argument was a somewhat lame "well it's a different viewpoint and needs hearing" as opposed to the more honest "it's grossly irresponsible but will nevertheless generate media attention. Ker-ching!"

I thought this was mainly a US phenomenon and everyone over here was resigned to global warming's existence (while not actually doing anything about it) except maybe for a tiny, tiny minority of the desperately stupid, but a very smart friend saw that Great Global Warming Swindle programme and the next day he was absolutely sold that everything he saw in it was FACT and we had been LIED to and it was all a conspiracy by anti-capitalists who hate oil companies for no good reason or something. I've since seen a newspaper TV review of it in a paper I just about trust enough to buy also saying "makes you think, doesn't it?" etc bla.

Now I haven't seen this programme (I probably should before I rant, it's on u|<n0v4 but I'm out of disk space, maybe this weekend), but the bits he was quoting as absolute proof it didn't exist were fairly well, er, if not refuted then at least contradicted in both the Gore film and the Planet Earth (?) episode about future climate change, but I didn't have any facts or figures in my head.

Any Britishers here seen it? Anyone else surprised at smart people being convinced by it? I'm a little surprised and disappointed at C4 for putting it on.

this issue is absolute dogma for some people, a nearly prophetic belief where anyone who's not on board with the apocalypse is a "denier." Is that what science has become?

I think the problem here, is that you move from "some people" to "Is that what science has become?"

[i] "Bergeron's epitaph for the planet, I remember, which he said should be carved in big letters in a wall of the Grand Canyon for the flying-saucer people to find, was this:

WE COULD HAVE SAVED IT
BUT WE WERE TOO DOGGONE CHEAP

Only he didn't say 'doggone.'"
- KV, _Hocus Pocus_[i]

I don't understand anyone who says the scientific community's evidence is inconclusive when every major peer-reviewed science journal, international study team, and independent scientific authority has either verified it or expressed major concern about it. They may not be able accurately predict all the effects - the global system is too complex for that kind of prognostication - but the fact that human activity is impacting the temperature and weather systems of the planet is indisputable.

B/c when you finally admit that a problem is happening, it kind of behooves you to do something about it. Any why make the effort to change when things are going so well for this quarter?

The argument isn't whether or not humans impact the earth. It's how much.

About $5 billion worth just in grain crops.

"Not every scientist agrees that agriculture is suffering from warmer temperatures."

We like to call these so-called scientists "deniers."

Who are the scientists? Are they gunna pull from a political scientist & statistician like the dude did in the NYT thing?

They are unnamed in that article because certainly, they are not real scientists who have done any original research on the subject. They are just shills for Big Oil, Big Pharma, Haliburton, George Bush, and Jesus H. Christ.

haha - you say that like it isn't possible

See? Even Don Weiner understands.

Shakey, by now you should know that I've rolled over and come to accept everything that Al Gore has said as the Gospel Truth. I regret that this took me so long, but I'm pretty ignorant and was brainwashed by the Republican Rapture.

The Heretics

29.

Versus the 928 in the Oreskes survey.

Don surely you're aware that there have been actual illegitimate efforts (some even by people you listed) to silence and/or discredit scientists scientific studies verifying global warming.

"scientists AND scientific studies"

gah

That's why these fake scientists are referred to as "deniers", Lee. Because clearly, they must be willfully ignorant to ignore the scientific consensus at hand. It just doesn't make sense to me, this minority of opinion. Surely Exxon, Dick Cheney, the NRA, Big Auto, Big Tobacco, Big Timber, The Beef Council, and Goodyear must be paying these people off. This crowd probably believes in Intelligent Design, are pro-life, and hate the gays. I wonder if they keep their wives locked in the kitchen.

I think we should take away their credentials and make sure Young People are not subject to their faulty teachings. Especially that wingnut Richard Lindzen--he's at MIT fer cryin' out loud! His original research was biased anyway.

Don you seem to be missing the point that scientists with legitimate minority views have had their positions deliberately conflated and confused by others with very non-scientific motives. Or do I have to show you the WH study with the blacked out lines and "we can't say this" notes scrawled in the margins.

You also seem to be missing the point about how small a minority these scientists actually are in terms of the larger scientific community.

but keep it up with the rofflicious strawman arguments that nobody on this thread is making. LAFFS

I'm not missing any points Shakey.

Are you saying that there are scientists who have legitimate minority views that is backed by original research?

Are you saying that that research is flawed and their opinions are invalid because it is conflicting with other scientific findings?

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2084

Scientists alive today* who accept the biblical account of creation

Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

* Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
* Dr E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
* Dr James Allan, Geneticist
* Dr Steve Austin, Geologist
* Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist
* Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist
* Dr Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
* Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
* Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
* Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
* Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
* Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
* Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
* Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
* Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
* Dr David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
* Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
* Dr Robert W. Carter, Zoology (Marine Biology and Genetics)
* Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
* Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
* Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
* Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
* Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
* Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
* Dr John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
* Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
* Dr Bob Compton, DVM
* Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist
* Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
* Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
* Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
* Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist

* Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
* Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
* Dr Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
* Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
* Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
* Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
* Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
* Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
* Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research
* Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
* Dr André Eggen, Geneticist
* Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
* Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
* Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
* Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
* Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
* Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
* Dr Paul Giem, Medical Research
* Dr Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
* Dr Duane Gish, Biochemist
* Dr Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
* Dr D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
* Dr Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
* Dr Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
* Dr Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
* Dr Barry Harker, Philosopher
* Dr Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
* Dr John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
* Dr Mark Harwood, Satellite Communications
* Dr Joe Havel, Botanist, Silviculturist, Ecophysiologist
* Dr George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
* Dr Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
* Dr Harold R. Henry, Engineer
* Dr Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
* Dr Joseph Henson, Entomologist
* Dr Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
* Dr Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
* Dr Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
* Dr Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
* Dr Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
* Dr George F. Howe, Botany
* Dr Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
* Dr Russell Humphreys, Physicist
* Dr James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
* Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
* George T. Javor, Biochemistry
* Dr Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
* Dr Arthur Jones, Biology
* Dr Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
* Dr Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
* Dr Felix Konotey-Ahulu, Physician, leading expert on sickle-cell anemia
* Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
* Dr Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
* Dr Dean Kenyon, Biologist
* Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
* Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
* Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
* Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
* Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
* Dr John W. Klotz, Biologist
* Dr Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
* Dr Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
* Dr John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
* Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
* Dr John Leslie, Biochemist
* Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics
* Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
* Dr Alan Love, Chemist
* Dr Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
* Dr John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
* Dr George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
* Dr Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
* Dr John McEwan, Chemist
* Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
* Dr David Menton, Anatomist
* Dr Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr John Meyer, Physiologist
* Dr Albert Mills, Reproductive Physiologist, Embryologist
* Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
* Dr John N. Moore, Science Educator
* Dr John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
* Dr Henry M. Morris, Hydrologist
* Dr John D. Morris, Geologist
* Dr Len Morris, Physiologist
* Dr Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
* Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
* Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
* Dr Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
* Dr David Oderberg, Philosopher
* Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
* Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
* Dr John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
* Dr Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
* Dr Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
* Dr David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
* Prof. Richard Porter
* Dr Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
* Dr John Rankin, Cosmologist
* Dr A.S. Reece, M.D.
* Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
* Dr Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
* Dr David Rosevear, Chemist
* Dr Ariel A. Roth, Biology
* Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
* Dr Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
* Dr Ian Scott, Educator
* Dr Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
* Dr Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
* Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
* Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
* Dr Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
* Dr Roger Simpson, Engineer
* Dr Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
* Dr E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
* Dr Andrew Snelling, Geologist
* Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
* Dr Timothy G. Standish, Biology
* Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
* Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
* Dr Esther Su, Biochemistry
* Dr Charles Taylor, Linguistics
* Dr Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
* Dr Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
* Dr Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
* Dr Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
* Dr Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
* Dr Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
* Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
* Dr Joachim Vetter, Biologist
* Dr Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
* Dr Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
* Dr Keith Wanser, Physicist
* Dr Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
* Dr A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
* Dr John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
* Dr Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
* Dr Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
* Dr Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist
* Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
* Dr Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
* Dr Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
* Dr Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
* Dr Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
* Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
* Dr Henry Zuill, Biology