Irish politics discussion thread

Okay. Lowry. Why? Just... Why? He must be an amazing local TD. Is there not a consequence to all this nonsense?

never mind that, mchugh otm re that fuckin clown mcgeever

look, you'll not understand this, but the more a rural national figure gets lambasted by the establishment/media/whatever totem, the more of a 'fuck you' shoulderchip attitude will grow locally towards dublin.

this is regardless of rights/wrongs or the damage done to the country as a whole or to the area in specific.

i hate irish ppl so much most of the time.

I say you wont understand it, i obv dont understand it but it is an observable fact. "didnt he get the roads done" as if technicians weren't designing and laying out roads through the NRA via EU funding from 9-5 every fucking weekday in their local council. As if the electoral area would be traversed by nothing but fuckin monster trucks without the local gombeen crook. Despair of the fuckin lot of them.

Fair play to Gilmore, though

huh

i wouldn't have predicted that. interesting to see how it develops from here- unions would like to think this was a govt-breaker but i doubt that v much (tho that of course will depend heavily on how said govt deals with this knockback)

It's interesting alright. Where will savings come from? Do we still need to make savings? I've gotten lost in all the political spinning from all sides!

I cannot fucking believe rte nine o clock news running a big story on a dodgy abortion clinic in the states. News editorial doesnt get much more disgraceful or obvious, fox level shit.

Hush DMac, don't question RTE, Breda O'Brien's"research" or any of the hysterical misquotations. Every time you question what's going on a baby cries.

Fairly disgusted with Matthews. Pure 1950s guff. Two referenda over the years and still he and his ill claim they are talking for the majority. Infuriatingly undemocratic!

PS saw the news on the cancer thread, good to hear and best wishes for speedy recovery.

Tks fingers all crossed.

Pat wasn't pulling either side on their assertions, unfortunately that's a biased position against the side that can back theirs up.

Very true:

"EVERYONE WANTS THE BABY TO BE SAVED" v "I think there is a reasonable middle ground..."

It's not a very level playing field.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0501/389642-abortion-legislation/

He said that the new legislation was about saving lives, both the life of the mother and the life of the unborn, and that it restates the general prohibition on abortion.

Mr Kenny said that the Government was determined to put in place a process that would not divide the country.

Mr Gilmore said it is already legal in Ireland to end a pregnancy where there is a risk to the life of a mother.
However, Mr Gilmore added that a failure of successive governments had led to continued uncertainty.
He said that the proposed legislation will provide a workable solution to vindicate the rights of women, and to ensure that women's voices will be heard.

Not even touching this.

If a woman is refused an abortion, she can appeal to a committee, which must meet within seven days of her request, and report within another seven days.

Well, it's like re-running a referendum, they eventually hear you if you say the right thing.

But even what's proposed is being fought tooth and nail and will divide the dail and lose the govt votes. I agree it's limited and far from ideal, but idk what more was ever likely to happen right now. Three experts or six seems to be the focus, which obviously couldnt be further from framing the discussion around the right to choose, but it does exclude the other position of 'every embryo is an eternal soul' so as to ensure an outcome where otherwise you might not get one.

sucks but politics, ireland, etc

I dunno, I think they're all stepping in to line. They all got to rebel but nothing has changed but that's the votes at the church gate sorted.

I think what's awful is the idea that a woman I might know might be interrogated about what I think is their (if they were feeling polite, their partner's) choice. It's distressing to think in a country where we have had symphysiotomies, Magdalene laundries and Our Lady in Drogheda it doesn't look like it's changing any time soon by which I mean we would trust that the adults in this country, regardless of gender, would have the ability to decide in an intelligent, reasoned manner for themselves.

That's exactly where I was coming from above. It infuriates me that as a woman my voice is never going to be enough, that jokes like Michael Healy-Rae and Ronan Mullen could be seen as credible voices on the matter and given coverage. IT WILL NEVER BE A CHOICE YOU HAVE TO MAKE, YOU BACKWARD FUCKS.

Clearly otm. Mullen is an eel.

Do you remember how he treated those ladies who went into the Daíl? Unreal.

How have the Iona Institute and their ilk such prominence when unelected?

Or medical training.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/misogyny-behind-state-controls-on-women-s-reproductive-rights-1.1381768

My first time in Dublin since January. I cannot believe the amount of anti - choice shit out there. Saw a truck driving a billboard down the quays. Awful.

One was parked up at St. Stephen's Green as well. Noticed posters are hung up very high. Obviously keen to avoid average joe being able to take them down. Can't wait for this to be over. At least RTÉ aren't putting them on all the time, I wonder did complaints from listeners overbalance shock value.

Still, at least brave steps such as banning menthol fags are being taken. Okay, that's actually a good thing but still, very annoyed with pretty much all politicians now.

Did see Ming at The Breeders though last week. I just can't stay mad at him when he seems perhaps the most normal of the lot at times.

I am now starting to warm to Leo and Enda thanks to Callan's Kicks. Truly a clever ploy by FG!

I managed to avoid anything until today, dunno how. it's just background noise, a losing strop and everyone knows it.

I have no belief that this is a losing game on part of pro lifers. I think it's been lost by pro choice side on emotion. Opposition keep hammering on not letting facts or scruples stand in the way. John Lyons today was shocking on the radio. All "you knows" and umming. The pro lifers have their script, they're going to come at you STOP BEING SO UNPREPARED.

This is not a bloody "can't we all just get along" type situation. Learn your grief, talk to advisors and be ready.

Grief should be brief.

I suppose this isn't surprising but to hear it discussed so informally kind of is. I mean... how does someone behave in such a partisan manner for a private business v their own country?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-anglo-directors-deny-misleading-central-bank-over-bank-bailout-1.1440889

Christ he's appealing to patriotism now!

well, i wouldn't normally - like, i just don't get the motivation. surely they knew their jobs were toast, would they really do this just for the sake of another couple of weeks?

I dont think.you get to bank executive level by looking at the bigger picture consequences tbh

My first time in Dublin since January. I cannot believe the amount of anti - choice shit out there.

I think it's desperation. They know they are losing this one. And their material proving rather counter-productive, pushing people away from them.

You think, DV? It feels to me that they are crowing victoriously. I also wonder whether legislation will ever be used if it successfully passes.

The banks thing... If only they'd kept quiet rather than ruining it for all of us (NB this is a joke).

http://www.thejournal.ie/admobile-company-drops-youth-defence-after-rape-crisis-incident-969637-Jun2013/

Youth Defence, meanwhile, said that they had not instructed the driver to park on Leeson Street.
“Youth Defence did not instruct the mobile ad to park anywhere on Leeson Street or on any other street for that matter,” said Clare Molloy who added that the furore was a “horrible and exploitative effort by abortion campaigners to use rape victims to attack the pro-life message”.

LOL whut?!

also, went on YD's twitter just there and saw they'd retweeted one R1ch4rd W4gh0rn3 and couldn't stop laughing. He was a cunt in college and he's an even bigger cunt now.

I mean they had seen some of the vans to lodge in their heads. Are you telling me choices of location weren't already known?

(xxpost)

pointing to the van across the road - sorry i mean a horrible and exploitative effort by abortion campaigners to use rape victims to attack the pro-life message

Its kind of awesome (literal sense) how mobilised the anti choice side are here. Unless im badly misreading the actual numbers strongly pro/anti in the country, the % of the latter logging in, writing letters and marching would be impressive on a purely political org angle.

Thankfully they're being ignored, obv. But the fuss FG have to be seen to make over dropping the likes of creighton and mulhern is a bit idk unseemly.

What are the thoughts on two of the brightest and youngest and most female of our national reps considering catholic ideology a fundamental input into their professional decisions btw? I find it profoundly depressing and it makes me more certain than ever that we need to look at the screens and filters in place before the electorate gets a candidate.

How many TDs in Dail Eireann are actively pro-choice? I never heard much from the pro-choice side when I was at home. I did, however, see anti-choice demonstrators show up in Tullamore with their mangled foetus literature more than once. How many of them put their views on choice in their manifestos? The issue has been ignored so long - 2002 aside - that it's hardly been the kind of opinion you put in your campaign material. I don't see how them being female - wtf at "most female" btw - is especially relevant to the issue. As far as they're concerned, it's something they don't need, so why should other women?

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I view it the same as chemists who don't want to prescribe morning-after pills, or those B&B owners who didn't want to rent to a gay couple. No place for it.

You must forgive my playful turn of phrase or we shan't get on im afraid

Point being that one hopes for a modernisation of political decisionmaking process, and one would hope that this would be accelerated by the inclusion of more input from younger td's, and that it would be hoped, in the context of a historically-catholically-dominated state still labouring under dev's constitution in many ways, that younger female reps might be mord than proportionately a force for change on issues exactly like this?

Surely that's not objectionable? The whole point of a dail not populated by greying men is very much that we get debates and viewpoints and votes different from those of greying men? If our younger politicians (of either gender) are only getting in after a screening process to ensure compatibility with the social conservative ethos of strict adherence to the doctrine of the church (and to a far greater extent than is seen in the general population) it's a serious problem.

Yr point about actively pro-choice td's is taken, obv lab and sf seem inclined that way, and tbh v few fg ppl seem actively exercised either way (its an eu necessity, etc) but yes it's obv that v few want to be seen to be aggressively pro-choice. Daly v much to the fore in arguing for choice on its own merits i spose.

why are you focusing on "greying men" and not young men though

Because of the posts i just made on the subject just there

I have a problem with you singling out young female politicians only, as though Simon Harris and Leo Varadkar - a fucking qualified doctor, no less - haven't been equally disgusting. Plenty of people are happy with the status quo, and would probably restrict travel to the UK for abortion if they could. Why is it in any way shocking that representatives of Fine Gael, in a historically conservative country, are opposed to this? Things don't change that quickly. I'm several years younger than these women and though I am pro-choice, lots of people my age would hold similar views. It's not surprising to me in the least.

yeah it doesn't seem to me that conservative politics in ireland splits along gender lines, not at all. also it's not as if someone has a duty to be have certain beliefs just because they're part of a certain group.

Ive a problem with you singling out a dr as if a member of any partic professional group has a duty to hold particular beliefs

Neither harris nor varadkar to the fore in the debate like creighton is, i dont even know varadkars position.

FG as a party will be voting strongly in favour of the changes

Plenty are happy with the status quo, its only quite a small section making this a leaving-the-party issue.

Varadkar got in hot water in 2010 for saying he would be opposed to abortion in most cases, including rape.

His original comments

The conservative TD and medical doctor said he would “not be in favour of abortion” and, although he is not religious, he would “accept a lot of Catholic social thinking”.

In 1992, the Supreme Court ruled in the X case that a woman had a right to an abortion if there was “a real and substantial risk” to her life. Mr Varadkar said: “The only thing that would be a grey area is if there’s a genuine threat or risk to the life of the mother.”

But he said he wouldn’t be in favour of legalising abortions for victims of rape: “I wouldn’t be in favour of it in that case, and, you know, first of all, it isn’t the child’s fault that they’re the child of rape.”

“How would that work practically? Would someone have to prove that they’ve been raped? I think where that’s been brought in in countries it has more or less led to abortion on demand,” he said in an interview with the Sunday Independent magazine. “You can say the same thing about disabled children. You know, some people would make that argument in favour of abortion. It’s not their fault they’re disabled. I wouldn’t be in favour of it in those circumstances either.”

He's still saying things like

A new referendum removing suicide as a grounds for abortion would also have to include other issues, said Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar.
He said he did not believe it would be possible to vote a third time on the issue without asking questions on allowing terminations on the grounds of rape, alleged rape, incest, the health of the mother or in the case of a foetus incompatible with life.

The only difference in their views is that Varadkar is canny enough to couch his views in more subtle language now and not attack Enda/James Reilly as Creighton has done.

feck, lost thread and forgot til now thanks for posting

fair enough about varadkar's quote, but that's a good while back and he's not been at the fore of any anti-bill discussion of late as such iirc? i mean, i actually agree with him on the latter paragraph, but i'm assuming he was trying to scaremonger in forcing the issue. whether or not he's afraid of upsetting the leadership or not, tbh i'm not bothered by. i mean, i agree with the concerns of the independents that are voting against, but if they can't see their way to supporting this as the best measure they're going to get right now, then i think they've no business wielding the power they do. (i'm willing to give them the BOD that they know their vote isn't important in getting this over the line but it still grates).

mulherin will vote for in line with whip.

peter mathews speaking on this went so far over the line it was simply fucking incredible.

He's stayed away from the forefront. I read a recentish article in the Times that reckoned Creighton's actions have relegated her to the backbenches, whereas Varadkar will be very much a part of future plans. He clearly, as per the second quote, disagrees just as she does, but he took so much heat for the first quote before he was in government and before Savita, that it seems obvious to me that his views haven't changed, but his willingness to stick his neck out for them has.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/crunch-time-for-lucinda-creighton-1.1454303

Anyway, that Tom Barry, eh?

Wasnt it fuckin incredible, saw it live and promptly assumed it was the hour and a crumb of cheese

Ha. My auld fella was so disgusted he took to Twitter to share his feelings on the matter. He's apologised already, though the party trundled out a dreadful attempt beforehand.

FG:

"It was a piece of silliness between two people who happen to be friends.

“I've spoken to the female TD involved and she is not really offended. She saw it for what was, in the moment, just a piece of silliness," he said.

It’s been described in Fine Gael circles as “horseplay”.

Tom Barry:

"What I did last night was disrespectful and inappropriate. I have apologised to Áine Collins and she graciously and immediately accepted my apology. No excuses I just shouldn't have done it."