GIRLS talk (the Lena Dunham thread)

yeah felt like they probably just needed a 3 minute sequence to explain how hannah ends up in this dude's brownstone

Also I kind that fact that the characters are inconsistent and dickish for no reason sometimes, which actually strikes me as kind of realistic.

fwiw she showed up at his house - which I don't remember him saying the exact address of - which made me change my mind from "it's Ray, something to do with being homeless" to "Hanna was doing it." xp

Can't recall if it was established that it was actually Hannah.

I thought that when she dumped Joshua's garbage in his bin (presumably for the last time) after she left his house, it was both apt and poingnant

The way I interpreted it at first when I watched was that Ray was being overly defensive b/c he was the one dumping the trash

think his reaction was more like I have no idea what you're talking about, thus it didn't happen, thus gtfo of my store

I don't think calling this episode a kind of "fantasy" is all that incredulous or misogynist. The entire mood of the episode was different and unreal. Has the show ever used music like that? Hannah doesn't just hook up with a guy who might be out of her league, but he's some cartoon stereotype of the Perfect Male who lives in this gorgeous apartment and they have a beautiful, story book two days together before it's all undone by her own "issues". It does feel kind of like a dream, and not simply because THERE'S NO WAY SHE COULD SCORE A DUDE LIKE THAT or w/e.

I'm not suggesting Hannah literally is ~having a dream~ and she wakes up the next episode, but it's built like a fable or something. I liked it a lot.

LOVED THIS EPISODE

Also totally identified with the lame "I need to have experiences" thing because half of my actions in life are motivated by whether it'd be a good story to tell. REAL DUMB, I realize.

A bit like Louie looking at the $13M house.

there's a huge difference between "this episode works as a fable" and "it was all a dream"

the "out of her league" argument is so stupid I can't even be bothered to seriously think about it but everything about this episode seemed sensible and real
watched it again and it improved. I think this individual episode might be more realized and accomplished than Tiny Furniture.
In fifteen years, most of Girls is gonna look as dated and bizarroworld as Sex and the City does now but this one episode would make perfect sense if it had been made fifty years ago and will make perfect sense fifty years from now.
It's as much an accomplishment as the Louie Melissa Leo episode IMO.

I need to rewatch this, but what's sticking with me are the little serene moments - Hannah watching Joshua reading the newspaper, or waking up naked on the white bedsheets. They have a character that I don't recall really being present before in what's maybe a kind of grubby, impactful show in general, and I think because of that Hannah's freakout resonated a lot.

I did think the sex-out-of-nowhere did seem a bit fictive (maybe I'm just too dull to conceive of real world instasex), but besides that I don't know what angle those people are coming from other than 'I'm a misogynist btw'.

I knew as soon as handsome Patrick psychokiller showed up that it was Hannah dumping the trash. I had no idea why except that it TOTALLY fit Hannah's usually facepalm bullshit, bless her heart.

To be honest I freaked a little when she kissed him. Like I half thought he was going to pick her up and throw her out into the street. But I was still thinking mostly about the trash thing, lol

Tbf, Hannah freaked a little when she kissed him.

I expected it to be some kind of daydream sequence (ala Louis CK and the townhouse) the entire time - it was too magical realistic, including Hannah unburdening her soul, etc.. Glad that it wasn't, though.
Hannah's line about "the feedback she's received" and the unburdening and the guy's reaction (I'd be freaked out, too, after 24 hours of hanging out) felt like the most honest moments the show has had yet.

I've stayed with this show 'cause it's funny, maybe generationally funny or whatever, and I'm (more or less subtly attuned) to what my gf thinks/says, but we both agreed afterwards that it was, literally, fantastic or fabulous (it's a rather exquisite fantasy, which I think she absolutely meant), but both funny and quite moving.

I have to admit that seeing Hannah fiddling with the controls in the improbably large shower and then passing out in the quite real 'fog' of the consequences and then being rescued/comforted by Joshua was quite good writing for me.

i think the "feedback" line actually points to a rather more nuanced way to take the "reality" of the encounter--it definitely seems like a safe and enclosed place (maybe not-quite full on wish fulfillment) apart from the regular world hannah inhabits. i mean, we're certainly supposed to be a little surprised he's so into her and it seems disingenuous, and maybe a little dismissive of the complexity of the encounter, to think he acts in an entirely "realistic" way in accepting her into his home so readily.

And the tension between her lust for his beauty, status, things, serenity and her appreciation (compared to his disapproval) for the shenanigans of the kids in the backyard next door almost broke my heart a little.

haha wow, i never once took it as fantasy or a major confabulation of the truth or whatever. these things happen to "regular people" all the time and i could definitely see how this event could happen to Hannah. i mean, just for example as this is the first thing among others that popped into my mind, did people talk about The Graduate as fantastical? Because seriously.

yes they did

this also goes further to show how TV is so much about audience perception (cool medium!) and how what isn't fully comprehended is filled in by the viewer's own beliefs/cultural background/etc. if this episode were a short story, i really don't think critics or viewers would have questioned the (albeit fictional) reality of the situation.

Maybe a forty-something hot dude with an absent (and likely ever to be absent) wife who has a twenty-something free spirit almost literally throw herself at him would occasionally be so free-spirited as to go along. Maybe he'd still know how to keep his cool about it all and play along - isn't that part of his stereotype's charm, not being a twenty-something flibbertygibbet? Maybe it's no less weird than many a weird, brief romance that ppl actually have, and even more delicious to him since statistically he's less like to have them and impending mortality and a modicum of self-knowledge would inform him of this or at least threaten it. Maybe it's as much fun to share his worldly goods as to just have them to himself - notice how he knows he's having steak and gladly shares it, somewhat to Hannah's surprise. The episode may be a Hannah fantasy episode - there's nothing wrong with that, we've most of us had, consumated or not, at least one little magic episode like this in our lives - but its power resides in the fact that Dunham has laid out a level if doomed playing field and let us watch a one-off game, perhaps never to be replayed except in their heads and for who knows how long.

this is pretty interesting, from Roger Ebert's 1967 review of The Graduate:
"This is outrageous material, but it works in "The Graduate" because it is handled in a straightforward manner. Dustin Hoffman is so painfully awkward and ethical that we are forced to admit we would act pretty much as he does, even in his most extreme moments. Anne Bancroft, in a tricky role, is magnificently sexy, shrewish, and self-possessed enough to make the seduction convincing.... The Graduate" is a success and Benjamin's acute honesty and embarrassment are so accurately drawn that we hardly know whether to laugh or to look inside ourselves."

What job is Hannah going to lose next? I kind of feel that when these young ladies settle down, the show is dead.

yeah and most of these little magic episodes that aren't necessarily life changing don't make it to a tv/film audience, so i agree, it was awesome to see
xps

Wilson's character very pointedly says "I live nearby. In a HOUSE." Ray's effectively homeless at the moment. Older, handsome, obviously well-off guy comes in the coffee shop bitching about something insignificant that Ray doesn't even know is real, of course he gets riled.

I didn't mean to imply that the encounter is at all imaginary--more than a certain idea of fantasy seems at play in the episode--even if only the banality of making fantasy "real."

ah, yes, i def see what you mean by that

Ray certainly isn't written (acted) to be easily loved. I respect that. If funny is what I stay for, Ray is worth every moment.

Jack Nicholson landing Amanda Peet...

The whole episode felt fanciful and a little unnecessary and unreal, like a particularly indulgent set-up for a confession that could have been done more effectively with increased realism. That said, I enjoyed it a lot, and found the youthful "I want to feel everything so I can tell people" egotism amusing and recognisable.

i like this take: http://www.xojane.com/sex/i-look-a-lot-like-lena-dunham-and-ive-banged-super-hot-dudes

otm-est.

I checked out of this show after the cocaine episode, because of the falseness of the Hannah character. The way she asked that guy to score her drugs - I'm sorry, no one is that socially clueless. No one comes right out and says to a recovering junkie, "Can you get me some drugs," or whatever she said. Not even a 24 year old. She didn't start with "hey, I've got this weird question to ask you..." or "look, this is crazy, but my editor suggested I do this..." She was just completely and utterly tactless. If there exists a person like that, they don't deserve a TV show about them.

The rave reviews of this last episode convinced me to give the show another chance. Still - it's the faux naivete of Hannah that I can't stomach. When she abruptly kisses the guy... No one does that unless they mean to stir something up. The way she reacts, like "OMG, did I really do that?" as if she's not an agent in the whole scenario.. Complete bullshit.

Btw, the relationship in The Graduate is very different. For starters, it's the older person who is the aggressor. Also, the Dustin Hoffman character is apparently a virgin and thus more susceptible to Mrs. Robinson's come-on. Also, she's supposed to be around 40, which in the 1960s was considered desperately over-the-hill.

f there exists a person like that, they don't deserve a TV show about them.

it isn't like those annual ceremonies that recognise the value & contributions of members of the public who have acted bravely in difficult circumstances. it's valuable to depict people as people. if faux naivete is a common reflex amongst young people navigating relationships then it can be powerful to show it, examine it, looking at people's motives. this is a thing i want from art, & it is holy if we get to see it on as vapid a medium as television; that we should see people displaying human tendencies that aren't either positive or cartoonishly negative, lovable or hateable. the best LD stuff, like andrew bujalski's stuff, smartly portrays the weird dynamics of human relations, including the times people talk past one another, project images, actively manage what they're projecting, & betray things about themselves in doing so. it's why the guy saying he had to go to bed before work the next morning works, even if it's close to a cliched collar loosening moment - it accurately catches the distance between surface-level talk & behaviour, & actual interactions & feelings.

a really frequent criticism of the first season was people saying the characters were unsympathetic; i feel like you are not meant to be looking at this show for a half hour of appealing imaginary comforting role models so much as you are for catharsis, & recognition, & to give voice to a lot of unacknowledged-elsewhere experiences & motivations we have

otm

otm

― flopson, Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:04 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sounds like you're subbing 'role models' for relatability, and I kind of see those as the same thing.

I'm in my 40s, so I'm certainly not looking to this show for "comforting role models." I just don't relate to the "motivations" part, and I think that the characters are not even consistent to themselves, the way they're drawn. They seem to scheme quite a bit and then turn around and play the victim, as if woe is them.

yeah nobody in real life ever does that

I agree about the asking for drugs (faux) naïveté. Even in a comedy, behavior can be so absurd that you're taken out of the show.

There are enough moments like Jessa and the stockbroker and this episode to keep me coming back, though.

i do think quite a few things about the cocaine episode were totally unrealistic

why is ray homeless if he is the manager of coffee shop that was paying hannah enough to afford rent?

hannah had all that crazy blog money.

none of his friends would let Ray move in with him

my god did no one on ilx watch this ep to the end of the credits when hannahs alarm goes off and shes late for work, fucking people

only a piece of trash falls out of her pants...

Has the show ever used music like that?

I said the same thing; I thought this was Michael Penn's best stuff. Totally beautiful and melancholic.