New York City is for sellouts

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I'm a lady, you dirty greasebag.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link

I thought the premise of the entire thread was to worry about NA's friends.

felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:01 (twenty years ago) link

Bill Parcells is a homo

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:02 (twenty years ago) link

It just seems like everyone and everything will pass through NYC at some point, that's what's appealing about it. London has that same appeal. Other cities...Chicago, San Francisco, etc. can be beautiful, but they seem stifling. They seem like dead ends, to me. More like islands.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

London's even worse than New York

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

Nick, I've asked myself this question before, too. I mean, NYC is awesome, and I could probably even live there for a while, but yeah, I catch your drift.

Know what blows my mind? Well, Emily and I are moving to Charlottesville, Virginia in September -- C-Ville is a small city (with a town-ish feel but lots to do) at the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, an hour from Richmond, three hours from the beach. It's gorgeous there, lots to do, great food, fairly progressive (especially for Virginia!), etc. Now, take Nick's question about picking NYC over any other major US city, and just think of how many minor cities like C-Ville there are out there, cool towns that hardly anyone outside of the state knows about but which are a lot of fun... the mind boggles.

Clarke B., Saturday, 9 August 2003 05:24 (twenty years ago) link

this is interesting to me, simply because I'm in so many of Ally's photographs (the subway one above w/me and her and Tracer may be a bit washed out but it may be my favorite of the whole bunch involving myself, for reals), and as donut bitch can attest, I'm starting to really feel like a Seattle resident again. I don't feel too conflicted about this dual residency, though, because I feel equally at home here and in NYC. (and Minneapolis, too, though that's a bit different--I don't necessarily see myself hankering to move back there anytime soon, though never say never.)

as some of you know, I moved back here for a job. in a month and a half or so, when a couple of large job-related projects are finished, I will be a much easier person to be around. but I don't *miss* NYC as intensely as I figured I would--and yet I have no doubt that I want to go back, that I WILL go back, someday, who knows when. but one of the city's chief charms is that if you've been there and you enjoy it (not everyone does, of course) you're pretty much a dual citizen of it and wherever you go afterward.

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:03 (twenty years ago) link

this is interesting to me, simply because I'm in so many of Ally's photographs

I find you very interesting to take photos of, you're a good subject. The subway picture is more washed out on the scan than in the original, for some reason--I can't get the levels right at all because of the reflection of the flash off my face. What convinced me to dye my hair black, all the photos from that night are the same, I look SO white and it just contrasts badly and washes out everything. The pic came out real nice though, you and Tracer look just great in it and I remember when we took it, you said, "I think that'll be the best picture of the night" and it was but I never scanned it because it just seemed...personal? I dunno. Which made it fit here.

Just to explain beyond the obvious reasons why I'd take photos of you, ie you're my dawg.

Ally (mlescaut), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:11 (twenty years ago) link

although certain things about NYC are pissing me off mightily right now -- and i find the strength in dealing with such shit by reminding myself that i am not a new yorker and i can fucking leave -- i don't really hate the place. when things are going right, it is quite unlike anything else in this world. but it's certainly not the only place in the world where one could live and/or work and have a good, happy and healthy life. matter of fact, yer chances of achieving any of the aforementioned might be higher outside of manhattan. still, it's nice to have around even if one never spends another second in the place -- like having war and peace or finnegan's wake on yer bookshelf, even if you never read either. which means that if/when i move, it'll be to either philly, baltimore or DC (boston is out).

Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:20 (twenty years ago) link

yes, it *is* personal. I'm usually pretty uneasy in front of a camera if I know it's there but I look really comfortable there, not straining at all. I get a real sense of gravity from that shot, and a sense of the three of us as a group rather than a collection of individuals, if that makes any sense.

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 9 August 2003 07:28 (twenty years ago) link

I like what Andrew said. If the "sell-outs" include a lot of people hopping off to New York in search of something they haven't identified yet (but something New York big) -- well, it's their presence that makes it possible, isn't it?

New York feels like a city dreamed into existence by a group of seriously coked-up people: "Right, right, there'll be a bar every three steps, and half of the people will look like models on their days off and act like drug-level flirty extroverts, and I guess we need a park so it should be just fucking huge, right, and and and. . ." I already know I don't have the energy (or the accessories) for this city, but whatever.

Other cities are great. Chicago's great, Boston's nice in its own skeezy way, I really like Atlanta now, San Francisco is the most beautiful thing ever (dreamed up by people on some combination of opium, ecstasy, and high-quality weed), and with the exception of maybe Arizona (sorry for your trials, Ally), the southwest is my favorite area of the country, and I can easily imagine myself wanting to live in Albuquerque or northern Colorado or even back in Pueblo, CO again. At some point.

But look, the NYC as "center of the arts" thing isn't just snobbery. Obviously you can make art anywhere; obviously. But the actual people and industries that transform the act of making art into a feasible industry are, for better or worse, all packed around this one city. If you want to work in trade publishing, you're moving there, period. If you want to write, you'll at least sort of benefit from getting out there and connecting yourself with other writers, editors, and agents. If you want to work in theatre, visual art, film. . . . (And you know: I'm sure it is snobbery on a lot of people's parts to point this out -- as if any artist worth anything will obviously be in NYC -- but a lot of the time it's just the realistic desire for people to slip in close to the industries they're trying to enter. You can be a great band in Indiana, but if you want to play a bunch of shows and hook up with a good-sized label, moving to Chicago isn't such a bad plan. Same goes for writers and actors and New York.)

New York is still brain-melting, though. I'm sure the coke-heads woke up the next morning and were filled with a gut-level fear of this massive chattering thing they'd created.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 9 August 2003 14:38 (twenty years ago) link

"the LA metro area has more people than does the NY"

I really don't think so-- NY and vicinity has about 2x metro LA's population, from what I remember. Same applies to the cities themselves.

As for the Toronto booster: I think Jackson Heights alone beats your numbers for ethnic and linguistic diversity. I do really like Toronto, outside of its Protestant middle class, but alien-ness of New York is one of its most insistent and compelling features. And it applies to immigrants from inside the US: I know of subcultures of (for example) Detroiters, and there's a sizable building in Greenpoint filled with people from Memphis.

Benjamin (benjamin), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:28 (twenty years ago) link

"Protestant middle class"

To expand: more English than England

Benjamin (benjamin), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:32 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, I was wrong re metro area pop. NY is ~21M, and LA is ~16.5. NYC is ~8M and LA I think ~3.5M.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:42 (twenty years ago) link

Adrian, Ga's pretty cool

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Saturday, 9 August 2003 23:50 (twenty years ago) link

But seriously, folks, why move to NYC and not anywhere else in the world? Is there anything left that's special or unique about NYC that doesn't exist in any other large US city? What leads to this mythology of the Big Apple?

Nick, obviously, NYC is not for everyone, but your remarks seem to betray a willful ignorance of the draw of the metropolis for many people. There is a definite NYC-bound pattern and history of writers (Fitzgerald, Capote, Thomas Wolfe, etc) and artists (Warhol et al) that feeds and perpetuates the mythology as the city as an escape from one's limited background.

In the above cases, NYC is provided in contrast to St. Louis, Alabama, North Carolina, Pittsburgh. The city holds a special draw for people from the South and the Midwest and is (was?) seen as a sight of licentiousness and freedom; historically it is one of the few places in America where gay men could feel comfortable.

Now, with the unearthing of subculture via TV and especially the internet, and the farming out of hip lifestyles to every corner of the US, the city is perhaps less necessary than ever for those wishing to lead an "alternative" life. Good thing, since the prices here preclude any sort of bohemian culture to greet any would-be cityspotters.

At the same time, the city itself is undergoing a suburbanization, and is awash in Starbucks etc. Sixth Avenue has become Avenue of the Stip Malls, with Bed Bath and Beyond and their like setting up camp. In addition, thanks to Giuliani and (and now Bloomberg?) civil liberties here are likely now at an all time low.

Stil, for many (and I can especially see why in the case of VA this would be the case, as it is my home town as well) the city still represents great opportunity and contrast. I came here because when I visited I really liked the energy on the street--yes, I thought it was like nowhere else in America, and I've since realized it is like no where else in the world (that I've been to).

I woundn't be too hard on your friends if they are acting smug about their planned moves--they will be struggling soon enough. It is definitely a challenge to live here.

(Disclaimer: I'm sure that many cities besides NY share characteristics with what I wrote above, but Nick asked about NYC, not anywhere else.)

Mary (Mary), Monday, 11 August 2003 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Acting smug about moving to NYC vs. acting smug about moving to Paris

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 11 August 2003 17:58 (twenty years ago) link

Acting amug about moving to Paris is better, because you can pepper it with unbelievably pretentious French words and expressions. Or wait, maybe that's "worse"? I don't know what you're asking actually. Forget it.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 11 August 2003 18:06 (twenty years ago) link

You must be in the same mood I'm in today.

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 11 August 2003 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

Good points from all. Special thanks for nabisco and Mary for taking the time to write long, well-thought-out posts.

Bah, I just wrote a long response to Mary and then intentionally erased it. I guess I'm just not in the mood today. But thanks for the contributions.

NA (Nick A.), Monday, 11 August 2003 18:27 (twenty years ago) link

HOLY SH*T HOW DID I FORGET ! !

The Cruise to thread*
the greatest film about NYC evah !!!!

kephm, Monday, 11 August 2003 20:04 (twenty years ago) link

four months pass...
http://www.artseensoho.com/MAPS/MapGIFS/nsgreene002.gif

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 12 December 2003 11:33 (twenty years ago) link

This entire thread is about how much Nick hates Yancey.

Allyzay, Friday, 12 December 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link

From http://www.dashes.com/anil/index.php?archives/007890.php. I don't even live there yet, and I'm printing it out and putting it on my fridge.

For those of you who live in the United States or are familiar with its culture, imagine a place that starts with a political and social system that's identical to today's United States, but has a few significant differences.

In this place, most people speak more than one language. Almost no one owns a car, even the millionaires. Many people don't even knowsomeone who owns a car. There's no Wal-Mart, no Target, no Home Depot.

People regularly and willingly use mass transit to get around for the few things they can't approach on foot. Almost every neighborhood has the basic amenities in walking distance, like a hardware store or dry cleaner or drug store, and they're almost all mom-and-pop operations, not multinational chains.

The people in this place, in addition to being well-educated on average, are extremely friendly, showing a repeated willingness to talk to and greet strangers, and an eagerness to educate tourists or visitors on the customs and rituals of their home. Their cultures are an extremely varied mix of cultures, backgrounds and identities, pervaded with an astonishing level of tolerance and respect.

There's also a deep ethic of civic-mindedness. Average citizens are not just aware of, but actively engaged in efforts such as city planning and zoning laws and the design and preservation of public spaces. Architecture is valued and protected by well-organized, well-financed groups, often consisting of canny partnerships between public, private, and corporate concerns. New urbanism is an understood goal, not just a theoretical ideal.

And this society exists within an unparalleled environment of artistic and entrepreneurial innovation. Constant reinvention paired with startling new creations. Music, dance, theater, film, sculpture, writing, and any other manner of expression all functioning at levels unsurpasssed anywhere else in the world at almost any other point in history.

So this place? It's where I live, Manhattan. New York City. That's why I write about the city with such reverence, and why it exists as a living, breathing character in my life and in the lives of every New Yorker. It seemed like something I needed to remind people about, if they're interested in reading what I have to say.

I was recently asked what my site was about, and what I had originally intended for it to be about, and I replied that the first name for my site was "New York New Media New Funk" and that I was hoping to get back to that mandate. I've mostly moved the New Funk over to my Pop Lifesite on TypePad, so the focus for now is to try to articulate why, exactly, I love my city so much.

There's a tendency for any positive dialogue about New York to be seen as unseemly, the vain preening of a city already too obsessed with itself. This is mostly the opinion of people whose impression of New York City is stuck somewhere between 15 and 25 years ago, when subway cars were still covered in graffiti, and when city parks were dangerous instead of idyllic. I'm fine with people's outdated notions of New York, though; It keeps them from overcrowding the city with their tourism.

And it goes without mention that there are problems here, serious ones. Most of them we see as charming idiosyncrasies, the same way we see the failings of a curmudgeonly uncle. It's loud here, much of the time. There are, of course, Targets and Home Depots in the outer boroughs. Sometimes the power goes out. People resent the Yankees. Bill O'Reilly broadcasts from here.

But it's important to remember that New York isn't just peerless among modern cities, it is inarguably among the greatest cities that has ever been. The renovation of our public parks in the past 10 years alone seems poised to leave this city, even in the shadow of our still-aching wounds, on the brink of a renaissance to rival the Beaux Arts splendor that beautified the city 100 years ago.

I tend to have a status update on the top of this site, as a tagline. Right now, it says "New York Invented Xmas" but it's just as likely to say that New York Invented Hip Hop, and the beauty of being here is that I get a vivid reminder that both of those statements are true.

So thanks for indulging me in keeping New York as part of my site's title, even though I've never done an adequate job of explaining exactly why it gets such a significant role. If you've never been here, if you've never lived here, you might not ever understand. But maybe now you'll at least have a hint of why it matters so much to me.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 05:56 (twenty years ago) link

that's beautiful, mang

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:11 (twenty years ago) link

There's no Wal-Mart, no Target, no Home Depot.

There's a Home Depot in Brooklyn.

bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:13 (twenty years ago) link

...and he mentions that.

ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:17 (twenty years ago) link

There's also one in Queens that will let you rent a 25A genny for 60 bucks. Or at least that's what it used to cost.

ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:18 (twenty years ago) link

(yeah, I notice K-Mart is unmentioned. and the Sixth Ave strip is conveniently ignored)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:19 (twenty years ago) link

And don't mention Starbucks.

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:19 (twenty years ago) link

and one, maybe more, in Queens. There's also a Target in Queens.

Tonight was another breakdown where I bum myself and the girlfriend out by contemplating publicly about having to move away.

x-post.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:20 (twenty years ago) link

And Best Buy on 6th now too... le sigh...

ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:21 (twenty years ago) link

more Starbucks please. Torrefazione too.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:21 (twenty years ago) link

most (but not all) of the great things about New York City have nothing to do with Manhattan.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:21 (twenty years ago) link

*cries*

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:23 (twenty years ago) link

I wouldn't be so adamant about it if (some) Manhattanites weren't so fucking smug.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:24 (twenty years ago) link

but what the hell, even in my shitty "bridge & tunnel" neighborhood you can endure shitty service from some stuck-up European.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:25 (twenty years ago) link

...and he mentions that.

yeah, serves me right for not reading thoroughly enough.

bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:26 (twenty years ago) link

"Brooklyn: Top Of The Food Chain"
-- Mike Tyson

http://www.screensavershot.com/sports/tyson.jpg

ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:27 (twenty years ago) link

but this writer lists Home Depot as being in league with not liking the Yankees or Bill O'Reilly so fuck him/her, really.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:29 (twenty years ago) link

Home Depot is great! It totally beats the pants off of Wal-Mart or ANY of the other megalomart chainstores.

bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:30 (twenty years ago) link

exactly! Which is why this smarmy Manhattanite can go fuck his/herself.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:31 (twenty years ago) link

also, when you can't afford to own where you live, of course you have no need for home improvement!

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:32 (twenty years ago) link

but home depot sells storage for the manhattan apartment you have no room to fit anything in!

bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:33 (twenty years ago) link

but you have to go to *ugh* Brooklyn or Queens to use it!

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:34 (twenty years ago) link

Can I just say that if I still lived in Queens I'd be for secession? Honestly, that borough gets such a bum rap but it's the largest, has great food, cheap rent, etc., etc.

hstencil, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:35 (twenty years ago) link

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/pg2/2002/0123/photo/a_tyson_i.jpg

Mr. Tyson takes umbrage with your statement

ModJ (ModJ), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:36 (twenty years ago) link

home depot is pretty fucking radical as far as big-box chains go. for one thing, it's a store which will sell you the raw materials to make cool shit rather than just sell you stuff so you can have stuff.

their plants selection is pretty awesome as well (though i bought a venus flytrap there once for like $3 and it was the saddest venus flytrap ever, i had to force-feed it bugs)

geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 06:37 (twenty years ago) link

My point wasn't to rag on Home Depot, but rather to point out that you can get the same stuff you get from Home Depot without going to an orange-wrapped chain store. You could just go to a mom & pop hardware store here, and you wouldn't have to suffer warehouse ceilings and, well, warehouse unfriendliness.

Anil, Monday, 29 December 2003 18:17 (twenty years ago) link

I think some of us were just pointing out the piece was being a bit intentionaly blind to some of the chains (and problems) that do mark Manhattan. If big corporation = inherently evil, then NYC should be handing out pitchforks.

bnw (bnw), Monday, 29 December 2003 18:31 (twenty years ago) link


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