Prince Albert Pujols, he reigneth

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Meanwhile back on topic:

18/34.5*162 = 85

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I got all this from last night's Giants post-game! So if you don't believe the word of a couple ex-jocks, then I don't see any hope for this world anymore. (I think Jon Miller referred to a booky book last night with these sorts of stats about Ruth, don't remember the title, though.)

Krukow surmised that Ruth's lack of automatic doubles was because stadiums had not warning tracks; instead, the balls had to bounce off of grass. Then the play-by-play guy who went to Stanford (STATHEAD OMG) deep-sixed this theory, because plenty of other chumps were hitting ground-rule homers.

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruth's lack of ground rule doubles probably had a lot to do with his being a left-handed hitter in a stadium with a ridiculously short LF porch and an even more ridiculously expansive CF with virtually no fence for a ball to bounce over.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:51 (thirteen years ago) link

RF porch, ahem.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 17:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Keith Olbermann said yesterday that Ruth lost one home-run with the walk-off triple rule, but could have lost upwards of 80 from the way foul balls used to be called - if it left the fences fair but wound up fall, it was called foul by the umpire (deadly for a pull hitter like Ruth, who was taking advantage of that RF porch). He got that from one of the SABR researchers.

Couldn't it just as easily have been someone from Japan or Cuba or wherever else? Babe Ruth is the greatest hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, whether you compare him to his era OR whether you take his stats alone.
Yes, it was rhetorical. Martin Dihigo was a Cuban player who played all eight field positions at a high rate and was a slightly-below-great pitcher as well. Pop Lloyd, Oscar Charleston, etc. etc. etc. - there

Josh Gibson never played Major League Baseball, and neither did, say, Saduhara Oh. Saduhara Oh played against allegedly watered down players, but so did Josh Gibson. If Gibson played in the major leagues, there's no way to know whether he would have hit 400 home runs for his career or 800.
That's why I said we 'could be'. What we do know is that the talent pool for both players was more questionable than the one facing Pujols or Bonds (and, I mean, there are questions about whether the stars of the 1920s could even get on the field with modern athletes).

Another thing to remember is that Negro League players were often playing in leftover deadball era parks, and none of them played in parks that were tailor-made to their abilities (ala Ruth's porch in Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox pulling in left field 10-15 feet to benefit Ted Williams).

Japanese records are significantly more detailed than Negro League (or even older MLB) records, so we do have a fairly competent way to translate Sadahuru Oh and other players' stats. From what I've read, Oh would certainly be a Hall of Fame hitter, but nowhere near the greatest ever. Shigeo Nagashima is less famous but equally respected by Japanese players/fans/historians.

milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Nagashima is more respected because he's Japanese!!! (unlike Oh, which is a sad, sad story).

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link

is the talent pool THAT suspect?

i mean sports are serious business now and conditioning is superior and just general societal lifestyle things make a difference, but wasn't baseball pretty much the only true major league sport in the days of the babe?

look at at all the competition baseball faces now from football, hoops, soccer and to some extent, hockey and lax (to the extent that there are thousands of kids who may never play baseball b/c lax season conflicts).

i'm not saying that the talent pool is weak now, but baseball had pretty free range over things for a while.

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 19:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I think the talent level in all those sports has increased, in part because of desegregation, but also because of globalization, industrialization and the rise of television/superstar athlete (far more people grow up wanting to be a star baseball player now--even with the rise of those other sports--than did a hundred or even seventy-five years ago.) Anyway I am pretty sure if you look at the statistics the range between the best players and the weakest (and even the median) players between then and now is much greater.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link

re: Negro Leagues -- stats from all games, even exhibition games, were also included in career totals.

c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link

Polyp and others,

I will enthrall and delight all of you with my fascinating observations in a week or so. I am leaving the keys to the ILB office with Barry and Felicity. Be easy on them!

Steve Shasta
East Coast Wakeboarding Representative

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 23:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Catch a wave and you're sittin' on top of the world!

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 May 2006 00:18 (thirteen years ago) link

Why must I be called "polyp". How unfortunate.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 11 May 2006 06:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Top Five NL First Basemen, by VORP

1. Albert Pujols STL .362 35.2
2. Nick Johnson WAS .326 17.7
3. Lance Berkman HOU .316 17.4
4. Nomar Garciaparra LAN .337 16.7
5. Carlos Delgado NYN .305 15.7

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link

The first number is EqA, the second is VORP.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:30 (thirteen years ago) link

NOMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I had the same reaction!

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Besides the "holy shit, Pujols is twice as good as all these other star first basemen" reaction, of course.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 14:59 (thirteen years ago) link

That's only because Derrek Lee broke his wrist though (batting .318/.448/.614 at the time of his injury).

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link

steve shasta = david wells, gimme my $5.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 22 May 2006 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link

There's a great chart in the new Sport Illustrated... actually, it's in my trashcan let me dig it out:

Okay, the title of the chart is "Projected All-time HR Leaders using Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA Forecasting Tool":

1. Barry Bonds - 765
2. Hank Aaron - 755
3. Babe Ruth - 714
4. Alex Rodriguez - 678
5. Willie Mays - 660
6. Adam Dunn - 638
7. Ken Griffey Jr. - 637
8. Albert Pujols - 620
9. Manny Ramirez - 589
10. Sammy Sosa - 588

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:21 (thirteen years ago) link

#1 Evil, cheating steroid abuser: ON DA JUICE!!!111
#2 Godlike baseball immortal
#3 Godlike baseball immortal
#4 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#5 Godlike baseball immortal
#6 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#7 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#8 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#9 One of the Good guys: Pure talent, this guy has what it takes to win
#10 Evil, cheating steroid abuser: ON DA JUICE!!!111

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Also in that edition:

Albert Pujols article: Albert is the new, clean face of baseball heroes. Albert upset about any steroid allegations, upset at his disputed age allegations. Meanwhile, he's on pace to shatter a record that only Evil, cheating steroid abusers (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) have been able to accomplish!

Barry Bonds: Increasingly poor production (.971 OPS?), agonizing march to overtake Ruth (3 HRs in 4 weeks of April vs. 3 HRs in 3 weeks of May to date!?!?!?), more of Verducci's declining and agonizing analysis.

Justin Gaitlin: FASTEST MAN ON THE PLANET!!! Meet the brand new 100m world record holder!!! Never mind that he tested positive for PEDs 3 years ago and received and served a year suspension!!!! Nevermind that his trainer and coach is the man who first was caught with an HGH/BALCO affiliated designer steroid syringe, setting off a wave of baseball-centric federal drug investigation... Nevermind all that, boy is this guy fast!!!

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 16:42 (thirteen years ago) link

Yawn.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:26 (thirteen years ago) link

xp - I thought everyone still hated A-Rod for being pretty and not clutch.

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:26 (thirteen years ago) link

Alex are you going to any of the STL games?

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah I've also heard them be down on Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn too, but hey I don't live in Shasta-land.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link

I'm not actually! I kind of wish I had ticks. I saw 'em last year.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link

a-rod's pretty?

otto midnight (otto midnight), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link

pretty shitty amirite?

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link

he's pretty... pretty clutch.

Also Adam Dunn has got to be one of the greatest power hitters of all time.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link

Will Adam Dunn end up being Boog Powell or Harmon Killebrew?

I'm wondering how Teixeira fares, if he signs long-term to play in the AL Coors.

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 17:44 (thirteen years ago) link

i hope adam dunn starts to hit for average, in between whiffing and homering.

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link

You forgot walking, gear. If he can just maintain a .250-.260 BA, his value will still be off the charts.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 May 2006 18:48 (thirteen years ago) link

He's the Rob Deer 5000 -- new and improved model.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Nah, Wily Mo is the Nu-Rob Deer.

Dunn is the true three outcomes master: K, BB, HR.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link

i wish he'd get up to .260!

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 21:50 (thirteen years ago) link

Wait PECOTA actually thinks Adam Dunn is going to hit 600 home runs? Isn't Adam Dunn the poster-child for old player skills? Doesn't that usually = pretty short career?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:06 (thirteen years ago) link

That said his baseball-reference comparables through 25 look pretty good although to be fair I'm not sure anyone other than Killebrew on this list is a particularly good comparison (and I doubt this is the list of comparables PECOTA came up with):

Darryl Strawberry (927)
Reggie Jackson (926) *
Jose Canseco (918)
Troy Glaus (909)
Tom Brunansky (902)
Juan Gonzalez (901)
Boog Powell (901)
Rocky Colavito (891)
Tony Conigliaro (890)
Harmon Killebrew (883) *

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd compare him to Todd Helton: he plays in a crackerjack box 81 games a year.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link

His home road splits are pretty extreme for his career IIRC.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Powell, Colavito, Conigliaro are all valid comparison - big, lumbering dudes with a ton of power but not necessarily staying potential.

IIRC, Boog is one of PECOTA's top comparables (as are Killer and Glaus)

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link

his three-year home/road splits aren't that bad: .836 away/.902 home

milo z (mlp), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link

what happened to helton? guy's turned into dave magadan.

gear (gear), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:46 (thirteen years ago) link

        /つ_∧
  /つ_,∧ 〈( ゜д゜)
  |( ゜д゜) ヽ ⊂ニ) poohole?!
  ヽ__と/ ̄ ̄ ̄/ |
   ̄\/___/ ̄ ̄

INSANE CLOWN FOSSE (Adrian Langston), Friday, 26 May 2006 17:52 (thirteen years ago) link

Babe Ruth hit his 25th homerun on June 30th in his definitive 1927 60-HR season (*154 games).

Pujols is a month and a day ahead of Babe Ruth's pace.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Ruth's pace is misleading -- didn't he hit 17 homers in September that year?

Comparing to Sosa/McGwire 1998 or Bonds 2001 is more revealing. I think he's ahead of everyone's pace though.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Nah, he's behind McGwire and Bonds.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Straight average:

25/51*162 = 79.41

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link

That would be quite a lot of home runs, but I'm pretty sure the .41 wouldn't count.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:59 (thirteen years ago) link

that would be a double

gear (gear), Tuesday, 30 May 2006 17:19 (thirteen years ago) link

he is the Aged Compiler :/

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 9 May 2019 19:51 (four months ago) link

his fWAR w/LA is a lot lower than his bWAR (6.6 vs 13.3)

even by bWAR's generous standards he's put together a WAR of 3.1 since the beginning of 2015, which is i think equal to what Cody Bellinger did in April.

omar little, Thursday, 9 May 2019 20:14 (four months ago) link

The stories of fans doing right by players and being rewarded with autographs and such are nice. But Pujols has long been a humble fellow who gets to the heart of the matter. https://t.co/256RvmhZCC

— Richard M. Nixon (@dick_nixon) May 9, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 10 May 2019 15:43 (four months ago) link

saw people being really weird about that on twitter -- like 'how selfish!' or 'what an idiot; he didn't get it authenticated so now it's worthless'

mookieproof, Friday, 10 May 2019 16:32 (four months ago) link

one month passes...

Ignore the headlines you'll read about this being Albert Pujols' first time back in St. Louis since 2011. Truth is, he never left at all.

How Pujols' impact on those with Down Syndrome has continued to grow in STL even as he took a new uniform. https://t.co/5zNJNBtTBL

— Jenifer Langosch (@LangoschMLB) June 20, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 21 June 2019 21:00 (two months ago) link

pujols gets a curtain call in STL after homering to deep left

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:37 (two months ago) link

Ricky Horton speaks for us all when he said “of the 20 great moments he had - we’re gonna have to get another piece of paper”

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:40 (two months ago) link

scandal: albert pujols' wife diedre says cardinals fans truly are "best in baseball", it's like they never left, and that the HR ranked as the greatest moment in his career.

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 20:47 (two months ago) link

he passed pete rose for 8th place all time in total bases with that HR

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 21:18 (two months ago) link

just a little guy named steve sax up next on that list

jk, next up is babe ruth

i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Saturday, 22 June 2019 21:18 (two months ago) link


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