Are you guys at Seattle Weekly really that bad?

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Actually...hmm...wait a minute. Wilson's column doesn't actually say those two sentences were the sum total of the Matos-Meltzer exchange, does it?

I'm glad you're here, Jess. I need you to prevent me from turning into trife on this thread.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:31 (twenty years ago) link

i mean, conflict of interest be damned, i could write for HOURS on how godawful the stranger is. at least this fucking city has at least one music section potentially worth reading every week instead of none. stranger in being-edited-by-40-year-old-alt-rock-fans-slinging-accusations-of-their-competition-being-out-of-it shocker.

haha mike, why? so I can turn into trife instead?

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:33 (twenty years ago) link

I wish I lived in a city with two alt-weeklies; that sounds like some sort of utopia. Fuck all this infighting noise. Both of them should be happy that the other exists.

Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:34 (twenty years ago) link

No more inappropriate I suppose than all those "Does the Village Voice think you're stupid?" threads last month; seems issues of the messenger are as acceptable here as the message. If I've rubbed wrongly on etiquette, then I apologize. But this crap does speak to the dissemination of how we enjoy rock-crit and who and what the brass that controls alt-weekly land thinks should be involved.

And no more inappropriate than the constant Lester Bangs ass-kissing or these new personal attacks on Chuck Klosterman (who's a pretty cool guy, actually).

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:35 (twenty years ago) link

except A. bangs is dead, and B. klosterman isn't a longtime poster to these boards.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:36 (twenty years ago) link

yes I am, no wait, I'm the other one, DeRogatis, amn't I?

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:38 (twenty years ago) link

DeKlostermann

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

do sports writers attack each other like this?
"Oh, that guy, he totally just pretends to like the new shot-clock rule because he thinks other people do."

Chicagoans who read our dominant alt-weekly The Reader may remember an article in their hot type section (which serves no other purpose than to cover and critique the 2 major dailies) about a month ago about the in-fighting at the Sun-Times between Jay Mariotti (The more DeRogatis of the two) and Rick Telander (The Greg Kot, if you will) and how they nearly got in a fist fight at a sporting event once. Apparently, the resentment between them is extremely personal.

ben welsh (benwelsh), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:41 (twenty years ago) link

So discussing matters that pertain to posters is some kind of sin? It's all inclusive to me; why not bring things up that are relevant to the whole?

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:46 (twenty years ago) link

jay mariotti has a bad fake tan! you heard it here!

amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:48 (twenty years ago) link

and he just pretends to like home runs.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:49 (twenty years ago) link

Maybe this is all just a very very very long post-mortem Andy Kaufman joke taken beyond the limits.

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

better Andy than Charlie.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:53 (twenty years ago) link

Thanks, donut! Yeah, the Woodring thing is sad, but I've heard that there was a lot of internal angst about the comic section reduction at the Stranger. I think the way they handled it with the large guest section was a nice way to spread what little wealth was left.

Actually, Michael, the Hilton Kramer hiring makes perfect sense, given that the NY Post is now the newspaper of choice for the "Ann Coulter pinups on my wall" set.

Joshua Houk (chascarrillo), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:59 (twenty years ago) link

th-th-there's a Jim Woodring WEEKLY DRAWING??

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:09 (twenty years ago) link

What's even weirder about the Stranger/Woodring pairing is that I vaguely remember reading a Woodring article in the former paper that essentially concluded with (paraphrasing) "Jim, why don't you just draw your mother's vagina and get it over with, already? jeez"

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:14 (twenty years ago) link

my town has a ridiculous FOUR alt-weeklies! the rivalry between them all has gotten pretty nasty in the past, which is whatever, but I think that sort of thing spilling over into print is so completely inappropriate and weak

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:41 (twenty years ago) link

it's really par for the fucking course at the stranger. sadly the alt-chumps in seattle (and especially olympia) probably see it as the stranger being engagingly gonzo in ye olde meltzer tradition.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:45 (twenty years ago) link

that's the worst, when people are nasty and cheap under the guise of being brave and revolutionary

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:50 (twenty years ago) link

which is the classic way assholes in any given "underground" community justify their selfishness

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:51 (twenty years ago) link

Well, there's ILM rumbled.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

Ha! Cheap calls cheap calls cheap ... I've started an infinity string ...

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:06 (twenty years ago) link

Cheapness Will Eat Itself

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:13 (twenty years ago) link

i still don't see how this paints an "unpretty" (to get all tlc for a moment and stick with the quotes above) picture of the weekly. a. stranger has lock on interview with ignorable indie rock band "forcing" matos to quote something already published that he himself wrote (last time i checked not a felony in king county), b. writer at stranger takes cheap potshots at matos' physical appearance, demeanour, and phone manner, c. matos shrugs off talking to someone from a paper with an obvious anti-weekly (and anti-matos!) agenda, d. matos fires aging, worthless rock critic who hadn't added anything to the medium in nearly two decades and who was allowed to piddle out 250 words a week in pity, e. writer takes pot-shots at seattle weekly events so obviously within matos' control because the stranger has the thousands of shitty indie punk bands in this city under its total control now that no one else will bother covering these walking corpses.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:19 (twenty years ago) link

that shot at the music fest was particularly lame and desperate-seeming, it sounded like something the sales staff might come up with

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link

it's so strange to see this, cuz before I started at the daily, I was at the biweekly here for four years, and even though I hate them because they owe me, I'm still quite fond of them and often tell publicists they should give so and so at such and such a call too.
But then again, when you're the king of your town, like I undisputably am, it's okay to be generous. That way, when you crush them, it's sooo much sweeter.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:31 (twenty years ago) link

basically, all I learned from the article is that the writer loves her job and doesn't doesn't doesn't want to get fired.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:32 (twenty years ago) link

haha horace otm

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:33 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, this woman does seem a little full of herself.

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:40 (twenty years ago) link

a. stranger has lock on interview with ignorable indie rock band "forcing" matos to quote something already published that he himself wrote (last time i checked not a felony in king county)

But Jess, there’s loads more journalistic integrity in palling around with bands so they’ll play your sponsored events and give you quotes than in approaching them with any sort of critical ear. (And you guys are lucky out there in King – in Cook Country just using a stringer carries a minimum of two years!)

scott pl. (scott pl.), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:43 (twenty years ago) link

Jess, I'll grant you that the stuff on the SW festival is dumb and petty and that I'd hang up on her too is she was giving me crap, but that is kinda bad inserting your own old ass quote into someone else's piece without at first attributing it; don't matter if the editor was the author of the quote, that's just dumb ethics. And to so bluntly run off two very good writers in Meltzer and Reighley, even if Meltzer hasn't been edgy in decades, isn't a great reputation builder. So seems unpretty to me.

That said, yeah, I also adhere to the "consider the source" line. Her attempts at identifying the Stranger with the hip music is pretty damn laughable. No winners in this whole thing; the discussion it all inspires is what prompted the thread.

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:50 (twenty years ago) link

And to so bluntly run off two very good writers in Meltzer and Reighley

first of all, metlzer hasn't been either good OR "edgy" in decades. which seems to warrant him being shit canned pretty well to me. i don't see anyone tossing xgau or marcus, mostly because they haven't been churning out repetitive, self-parodic drivel (okay that's up for debate, even though i don't personally think so) for the miserly $$ of the free weeklies of the world for the last two decades while still claiming to hate all music.

secondly, as i remember, reighley wasn't "run off" at all. he was told "no more columns about your boyfriend or dog" (and unless he's fucking his [male] dog, i don't see how that could be homophobic) because frankly no one I know wants to hear about his boyfriend and/or dog in the context of whatever crap he was peddling that week. he balked at this and walked.

thirdly, people don't normally fire the editorial staff of a music section and bring in someone with a completely different agenda if they're happy with the way the music section is being run. INCLUDING the writers published.

fourth, like you said, consider the source. the stranger is hardly going to be giving a fair and biased account. i mean, how exactly did they track down that email to meltzer in the first place?

the basic lesson is, indulge people for too long and they'll get all sorts of inflated ideas about what the public actually gives a shit about. if you REALLY want to write about your dog (or be meltzer) then save it for the chapbooks.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link

fifth, there's no accounting for taste. matos let go of the writers he did because he didn't feel like they were adding anything to the paper. which should be the main priority, no? metlzer should have no problem finding some other aging editor to take pity on him.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:02 (twenty years ago) link

th-th-there's a Jim Woodring WEEKLY DRAWING??

click

Funk, Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:04 (twenty years ago) link

sixth, the bit about the unattributed quote seems a rather flimsy nail at best to hang this little diatribe on.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:05 (twenty years ago) link

And if any of you knew the actual quote in question, I think everyone would have laughed this story -- and hence this thread -- off several hours ago.

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:06 (twenty years ago) link

to wit: "In the last year, everything I listen to is coming out, maybe in the bass lines. The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees. That's the way we write songs; we're all influenced by different things and then cramming them on top of each other."

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:09 (twenty years ago) link

granted, a quote is a quote, and a fuckup is a fuckup, no matter how incidental or not it is.

Still though.. TS:
* making comments about one's physical appearance and implying one is a homophobe
vs.
* being outed has having one's bass playing influenced by the cure and siouxsie and the banshees

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:17 (twenty years ago) link

(change "being outed" to "outing someone who")

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:19 (twenty years ago) link

isn't it kind of insulting that it's implied that the stranger is not interested in giving attention to anything other than the "big name indie bands" in seattle?

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

i mean, she says "best", but obviously "best" means "allowed to play stranger events" means ??

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:23 (twenty years ago) link

chaki, i like "speakers push air"*... take a listen to the panning guitars in the 2nd verse.

*i have never heard any of their other songs.

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

I've never heard pretty girls either, but again they seem kind of a lame duck "trophy." this area is really boring right now, musically. i WISH i could find stuff to write about.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:26 (twenty years ago) link

There are PLENTY of great bands/electronic acts in Seattle that neither the Stranger nor the Seattle Weekly has recently been parading. The Cripples, Last Waltz, Akimbo, Rip To Shreds, Cid & Eric, Teen Chthulu, Cold Sweat, Randy Jones, Sientific American... I could go on and on.

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:31 (twenty years ago) link

4 jess

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:31 (twenty years ago) link

they sound like seaweed.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:37 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, for what it's worth, I actually like that PGMG record.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:37 (twenty years ago) link

thirdly, people don't normally fire the editorial staff of a music section and bring in someone with a completely different agenda if they're happy with the way the music section is being run. INCLUDING the writers published.

On this point, Matos and I are in the EXACT same boat (i.e. we both basically followed the same regime). So I understand the changes. I'm just talking about the bedside manner in doing so, that's all. Meltzer is still Meltzer, ya know?

Chris O'Connor (Chris O'Connor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:38 (twenty years ago) link

haha rock'n'roll is all about honoring thy father and mother, right?

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:39 (twenty years ago) link

tangent >>>>
is this the finest music mag from Seattle? ...but why are they anglophiles?
http://www.resonancemag.com/

DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 28 August 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

well in a sense maybe my perception (which is more than likely flawed) is that the critical stance (or lack thereof, as I see it) and the music go hand in hand?

hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

I don't see how yelling NEVER BUY NEVER BUY NEVER BUY is any better than yelling BUY BUY BUY. Aren't people who watch TV all day and bitch about it more annoying than people who just watch TV all day and are fine with it?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:54 (twenty years ago) link

it's not necessarily a better view, Anthony, but taken solely from the consumerist view above I find it to be more honest. Maybe if I made six figures a year (or got records for free) I'd think it different.

hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

'Honest'?

Cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:58 (twenty years ago) link

honest in the sense that it's more true to the fact that not everyone can afford everything. I think I explained it upthread.

Also, I think I'd be the first to admit that my own curmudgeonly tendencies color a lot of this bias, too.

hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:00 (twenty years ago) link

DON'T LISTEN DON'T LISTEN DON'T LISTEN vs. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN

mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:07 (twenty years ago) link

both are inferior to someone whose enthusiasm (or lack thereof) isn't so predictable.

I'm definitely more likely to read a Meltzer review (unless it's one of those Dada bullshits) than a CMJ review because cynicism leads to better jokes. But a CMJ review never makes me assume talent is being wasted, becuz there's no implication of talent in the first place.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:13 (twenty years ago) link

also: i'm uneasy with the idea that sherburne's worth as a critic (a 'dance critic', a 'rock critic' etc) is somehow suspect (the bit abt 'innate curiousity') if he doesn't feel the need to engage with meltzer/the melzer-continuum (or engage with him as a 'before you begin you need to read...' grandfather of rock crit anyway). even if you disapprove of a 'dance/pop' quasi-ahistoricism in music criticism, enough's happened between meltzer and whatever more immediate music crit lineage you'd feel more comfortable slotting philip into that his (sherburne's) writing can stand on two (valid) legs, both as 'music criticism' and criticism of music criticism.

mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:29 (twenty years ago) link

i would direct philip to that epic Eno thing by Lester Bangs that I was reading last night and that can be found at perfect sound forever, i believe. I enjoyed the hell out of that. a lot of it is just Eno talking though. which I enjoyed. maybe not everybody would. It's very funny, and personal, and informative and lucid. and memorable actually.

scott seward, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

what Mitch said is what I was trying to get across to Diamond above; I apologize for my tone. given the circumstances (not Diamond so much as the stuff this thread is discussing generally) I was a lot more snipish than I needed to be. but two days in the Bumbershoot sun has evened me out something nice.

M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 04:12 (twenty years ago) link


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