ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (5060 of them)
ja. "third- and fourth-year undergraduates."

meanwhile, here's the copyediting story of the week.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 25 October 2006 06:54 (seventeen years ago) link

'Vehicles left at owners' risk' or 'Vehicles left at owner's risk'?

Winterland (winterland), Friday, 27 October 2006 12:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Former - multiple vehicles have multiple owners.

ledge (ledge), Friday, 27 October 2006 12:31 (seventeen years ago) link

"premier issue" of a magazine? always thought "premier" exclusively meant "primary," but I see secondary def is "first in time." Still looks weird without final e.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 October 2006 13:32 (seventeen years ago) link

It looked weird to me too, but we must be thinking in French :-) UK, US and Canadian dictionaries all show "premier" as the adjective.

surfer_stone_rosa (surfer_stone_rosa), Friday, 27 October 2006 15:12 (seventeen years ago) link

two months pass...
does the frequent use and abuse of "curator" or the verb form annoy anyone else as much as it annoys me? i recently received yet another email from someone promoting and event and claiming that they were "curating" it. um, no. you're not curating anything. you're showing a movie a few times a month at a bar. GAH!

lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha, I totally appropriated that word for an art party I went to, because $ILXor's brother had organized/hung/lit the show and I kept having to explain to people why I should get in (after doormen stopped admitting) or why I was there even though I didn't know "Carlo"/so-and-so/such-and-such. I have no idea whether it was technically correct but I got in! And drank lots of wine.

Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:10 (seventeen years ago) link

it seems reasonable to call someone who organized, hung, and did lighting design for a show the curator. i'm talking about really silly stuff like "music curated by so and so" for a show or suchlike.

lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:14 (seventeen years ago) link

One thing in its defense = I can't think of a different single word to use for "person in charge of selecting and programming the various pieces of art you will see at this event." It definitely seems excessive for screenings of one film a week, but as soon as there are multiple pieces / performances at one event, it's hard to come up with a snappy way of describing the person who chose them.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:56 (seventeen years ago) link

I like the term "curator" for things of this nature.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:56 (seventeen years ago) link

(That said, I have been similarly annoyed by it ever since the time I looked at this woman's flyer in a dark bar and said "ahh, and you're the 'creator'" and she said "umm, curator" like I was illiterate and not just blind, and then several weeks later someone showed me some hilarious Chicago "art" porn starring her.) (Apparently "art" porn involves stuff that looks like bad student films in which no one gets naked or has sex but there are elaborate costumes and lots of non-sequitur "poetic" voice-over with the word "daddy" prominently featured.)

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 21:00 (seventeen years ago) link

i guess i would prefer "organized by" or something similar to describe someone's role in putting an event together. to me, "curator" implies professionalism, experience, and education.

lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 21:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Curatorist! I mean, you're totally right -- people use the word because it has that professional air. But wouldn't it be kinda snobby of us to claim that the act of curating, as done by an educated professional, is so different from the act of an amateur that it requires distinct words? I mean, we could just use the word generically for the act, on any level, like we do with any number of professional terms.

(Ha, although I think we all get snobby on this topic when it comes to whatever we personally do: I am that way people describing themselves as "writers.")

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 21:22 (seventeen years ago) link

i suppose it's the professional connotation of the word that leads to my annoyance at it's current usage. i mean, i wouldn't say that i had "doctored" someone's cut by putting a band-aid on it.

lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 21:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Messrs Schröder’s horse or Messrs Schröders' horse?

Maria :D (Maria D.), Friday, 12 January 2007 03:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I do think "curator" can be annoying wrt music events - we already have the words "booker" and "organizer" for that, and frankly, booking in most cases is not like curating. It's "We've got hot up-and-coming band x, now let's throw on a sort-of-hot soon-to-be-up-and-coming band with a moderate draw and a nobody band that always brings all their friends."

It makes more sense for a longer event with many bands, especially something like All Tomorrow's Parties where it's a specific artist's vision of what's teh hotness in music at the moment.

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:14 (seventeen years ago) link

In ordindary plural you'd say "the Schroders' horse," so I'm guessing "Messrs Schroders' horse" would be correct.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:55 (seventeen years ago) link

"ordindary" = milk products in a numerical sequence

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:57 (seventeen years ago) link

It makes more sense for a longer event with many bands, especially something like All Tomorrow's Parties where it's a specific artist's vision of what's teh hotness in music at the moment.

Why? If you book a night of five bands, surely you then book a weekend of them, too?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 10:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco, I think you're coming at it the wrong way. It's Messrs Schroeder, not Messrs Schroeders.

So: Messrs Schroeder's horse.

Mädchen (Madchen), Friday, 12 January 2007 11:03 (seventeen years ago) link

"Messrs Schroeder's horse" reminds me of the menu option at Boston's late lamented Wursthaus, on Harvard Square, for "chili con carne mit beans."

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 11:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Messrs' Schroeder horse!?

Alba (Alba), Friday, 12 January 2007 11:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco, I think you're coming at it the wrong way. It's Messrs Schroeder, not Messrs Schroeders.

So: Messrs Schroeder's horse.

eh? but there's more than one schroeder, and you'd say "the schroeders' horse" ... nah, i'm with nabisco.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

are the schroeders going for a quiet weekend's riding with the pertuises? i do hope so.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Why? If you book a night of five bands, surely you then book a weekend of them, too?

Well, maybe if you're choosing artists on more than just "a bunch of bands that will please a certain demographic and bring people to the festival." Even then, "curated" is a bit pretentious.

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link

You mean like choosing bands based on what color shirts they're wearing, or something?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:21 (seventeen years ago) link

But you would say Messrs Schroeder are going to town. I'm with Messrs Schroeder's. Sort of like attorneys general. It would be the attorneys' general horse, right?

Maria :D (Maria D.), Saturday, 13 January 2007 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

the messrs schroeder is singular noun of plural content, like crowd

the crowd's horse
the messrs schroeder's horse

it's the presence of the "the" which rescues it from impossible eccentricity -- it pushes it over into extreme formality

but if formality is the order of the day, you shd probably opt for "the horse of the messrs schoeder" -- which handily pussies out of the prob

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 13 January 2007 02:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Ah, right, totally. Like "Mr. and Mrs. Smith's horse."

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 13 January 2007 04:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Ok, you convinced me. Formality is called for. It's in a letter from a lawyer demanding payment for a horse. A very expensive horse.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Saturday, 13 January 2007 05:11 (seventeen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Grrr, annoying minutiae:

"sixfold" vs. "six-fold" (et al)

Is there a rule on these? One right, one wrong, acceptable alternatives, different uses? Months ago my boss indicated what he felt was correct - I think one was an adjective and one an adverb - and as it seemed perfectly clear and self-evident at the time, no one wrote it down. And of course I can't find it discussed authoritatively on the internet.

i'll mitya halfway (mitya), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 12:25 (seventeen years ago) link

not really. there are a few hard-and-fast rules (eg adverbs ending in -ly aren't hyphenated - "socially acceptable behaviour" etc - but almost all other prenominal compound modifiers would be, eg "quick-thinking ILXors".) but apart from that, it's a perennial battleground.

best thing to do is get yourself a good dictionary - i always recommend the oxford dictionary for writers and editors - and make that your style bible: ie try to ensure everyone you're working with sticks to it. but that's easier said than done, as i know only too well :(

i can e-mail you a copy of my legendary 1996 undergraduate dissertation on punctuation if you want, but you'll need a) pagemaker 5 and b) a really, really high tedium threshold.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 13:12 (seventeen years ago) link

(and anyway, ISTR i didn't really deal with hyphenation. or, indeed, anything much.)

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 13:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Since there are no coherent general standards on hyphenation, every place I've worked has deferred to a specific dictionary on stuff like this. (Which was a real surprise when I was grocery cashier.) In the US, I'm guessing most would tend toward "sixfold," but who knows about elsewhere.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 13:27 (seventeen years ago) link

do what any real sub would do. say "sixfold strikes me as wrong. It seems like a lot. Can't be right. I'll make it say "four times".

stet (stet), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 13:36 (seventeen years ago) link

lol. i often take that out, although to be honest, after i while even i start to rebel against flattening people's texts completely. people keep throwing the same mistakes at you over and over, and you start to forget what's actually a mistake.

xpost
no dissertations, thanks :)

i'll mitya halfway (mitya), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 13:41 (seventeen years ago) link

Doesn't the Graun style guide say that hyphens gradually disappear as the hyphenless form becomes more acceptable so, if in doubt, don't hyphenate? I don't think I'd hyphen tenfold, for example, but if it was anythingelsefold I'd try to find a more attractive way of putting it.

Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Ah, here's what I was after:

Our style is to use one word wherever possible, including some instances where a word might be hyphenated by other publications. Hyphens tend to clutter up text (particularly when the computer breaks already hyphenated words at the end of lines).
Inventions, ideas and new concepts often begin life as two words, then become hyphenated, before finally becoming accepted as one word. Why wait? "Wire-less" and "down-stairs" were once hyphenated. In pursuit of this it is preferable to go further than Collins does in many cases: eg trenchcoat is two words in Collins but one under our style; words such as handspring, madhouse and talkshow should all be one word, not two words, and not hyphenated.
Do use hyphens where not using one would be ambiguous, eg to distinguish "black-cab drivers come under attack" from "black cab-drivers come under attack".
Do not use after adverbs ending in -ly, eg politically naive, wholly owned, but hyphens are needed with short and common adverbs, eg ill-prepared report, hard-bitten hack, much-needed grammar lesson, well-established principle of style (note though that in the construction "the principle of style is well established" there is no need to hyphenate).
Finally, do use hyphens to form compound adjectives, eg two-tonne vessel, three-year deal, 19th-century artist.

Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm guessing the adverb/adjective thing breaks down like this:

sixfold = adverb e.g. "Their numbers increased sixfold."
six-fold = adjective e.g. "This is a six-fold napkin." (I don't know what a "six-fold napkin" is, I just made something up.)

___fold = one word, whereas "six-fold" is just two words crammed together that you use as an adjective to describe something that has six folds in it.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 8 February 2007 01:15 (seventeen years ago) link

nice try. don't think the world's grammarians will be rewriting their style books just yet :)

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 8 February 2007 09:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually, a quick look at the dictionary shows that "sixfold" is a word. No need for hyphenation at all.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 8 February 2007 09:15 (seventeen years ago) link

"the dictionary". which one? chambers? oxford? you'll find discrepancies.

i don't just make this shit up, you know :(

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link

It's in Webster's 11th, which is my bible at this job.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:23 (seventeen years ago) link

depressing to read this thread. i always think i know english grammar pretty well. :-(

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Once any dictionary says something can be one word and not hyphenated, I take that as carte blanche to switch.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't be bothered with cartes.

Mädchen (Madchen), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

They're quite fun when you put them before the horsee.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

ts: ground ball vs groundball vs ground-ball

Elsa Svitborg (tracerhand), Thursday, 8 February 2007 18:39 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't just make this shit up, you know :(

cof cof cof

stet (stet), Thursday, 8 February 2007 18:44 (seventeen years ago) link

fu cof

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 8 February 2007 21:29 (seventeen years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.