Literary Clusterfucks 2013

Dude, nothing I said was "nasty", I just said you were being very frustrating itt.

hi

You didn't give any reason for that. You just said that banging your head against a wall is more productive than talking to me without actually responding to anything I actually said. xp

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:46 PM (3 minutes ago)

omg seriously can you both just stop

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You still haven't answered this btw. You've just decided to make this about a perceived injury to yourself, maybe bc you can't answer my question.

Sitting in a tree.

K

I

S

etc

What if everyone just got up and went for a nice walk

No, I won't stop. I'm sick of everyone just hushing up when ilxors start bullying each other. Mordy pulled out an obviously inflammatory comment to provoke me that had nothing to do with this thread. I'm sick of that treatment. I did nothing to deserve that kind of personal attack.

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

I think, for a lot of people, there is a hierarchy of cruelty:

mental abuse < physical abuse < sexual abuse

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

Yes, you do. You say mean things and then try to cute your way out of them. Why don't you stand up for what you wrote? xp

first comes love

then comes marriage

...

'poisonous cuntstain' is the name of my dog

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both adults posting on a message board. No one is threatening harm. We are having a discussion. If he or I decide that we don't like the conversation we can stop it at any time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Fpl67p5qk

"adults"

My "DJP OTM" comment was intended to convey that he effectively summarized what I was trying to say. If you were actually trying to engage in a real debate with me, I'd bother to address your comments. But as soon as you threw your "race war" comment out, you immediately revealed yourself as a bully with no actual interest in the topic at hand. You're not worthy of my time nor respect and I'm disappointed in myself for engaging with you even this far. I'm going to flat out ignore every single one of your posts on any thread from now on, unless you feel like issuing an apology for your "race war" comment. You knew that was a sensitive issue for me that has already been beaten to death, you brought it up solely to provoke me with no real intention of fostering a legitimate discussion.

I assume we are at the very most both above bar mitzvah age. xp

best new rolling thread

I apologize for my race war comment. Now jon, would you like to respond to my question before 'race war' ever came up? I'll remind you:

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:29 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

ned i love you for that youtube

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

Sorry, that long sentence didn't arrive where it was supposed to, but I think you can figure it out.

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both idiots posting on a message board. No one wants to read our posts. We are having a shitfit. If he or I decide that we don't like the thread we can derail it at any time.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:57 PM

Oh no, this poor thread being derailed.

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

I agree completely but I don't think that's a perspective one is going to arrive at unprompted without having experienced that in a situation they felt they couldn't escape, such as a romantic relationship or sibling/parental abuse. It's one of the reasons why "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" is such a popular little saying.

Defining verbal abuse as saying mean things is sort of like...it's basically the same as defining rape as just wanting to have sex with someone? Or something. I don't know. But it leaves the POWER aspect out, and since power is the whole point, you can't accurately describe the abusive behavior without it.

I'm grateful that we can now have to a public conversation about rape that in general acknowledges that it's not a crime of sex but one of power/dominance. That is a more accurate direction to go in, better for identifying contributing factors, better for prevention, better for diagnosing the social ill, etc. Verbal and emotional abuse have exactly that same quality, and we should be having that kind of conversation about them as well.

Okay now my head is spinning a bit even more because NOW she's deleted the tweet (and FB post) explaining why she deleted the blogpost.

xp: Again, I agree; what I am trying to say is that it is easier for an external onlooker to disassociate the power aspect from verbal abuse than it is to disassociate it from physical or sexual abuse, largely because there is an overt, tangible expression of that power in the form of physical violence, and I believe that impacts the "seriousness" for lack of a better word that people in general impart to verbal abuse. It's part of why people get so cruel in comment sections or on messageboards, or why some people really don't believe some forms of bullying are a serious problem.

I know, we agree! :) But like I said, it is interesting to see who picks up on that aspect and who sticks RAPE right up at the top of the pile of problems with just everything about this situation.

I get the three different levels thing but to read about that level of sustained and premeditated emotional abuse going on for so long and then go "whoa we should totally not assume that any sexual abuse happened just because this woman said so" like the former was just fine (both for the guy to have done and for the reader to take at face value, if you really feel the latter claim must be protested) but it's some kind of crazy leap between the two... that seems weird and uncomfortable.

xps sorry, just wandering in late and agreeing with everyone while sounding like I disagree

I think it's pretty obvious right now that her publisher is putting mad pressure on her not to put out anything negative about this book.

the thing that was so chilling to me about her situation was his insistence on keeping her away from her family and her son --- that motivation comes from such an infuriatingly weak ego, and yet it creates a space for so much more power to be wielded once that's achieved. I mean, I've heard stories from friends over the years and when that is part of the narrative, you know that it's going to get really bad, really quickly from that point onwards. divide and conquer, etc.

What I am having most trouble with is the fact that she obviously has, at best, severe misgivings about both this relationship in particular and the type of relationship it represents more generally -- and yet she is still gamely going out promoting this book that presents this relationship and this type of relationship as something revelatory and fulfilling. From all the reviews it sounds like she's being prescriptive -- ladies, you need a cowboy! -- but she has acknowledged that what she's prescribing is unhealthy and maybe dangerous. That's not just dishonest, it's irresponsible.

^ OTM

My problem also, hence way way at ths start where I said I hated the idea of the book because of this whole 50 shades submissive bullshit. It has to stop, because its reality is what she's (purportedly) gone thru as a result!

tipsy, I would hazard a guess that her options right now are either continue to play along on some version of the publicity & promotion agreement or be prepared to break contract and deal with the consequences, possibly involving demands that she return all or part of the advance. I think the blog post from yesterday was her attempt to break with the viewpoint of the book, it certainly read like it was?

Yeah I'm still having a hard time with the fact that here is a 43-year-old educated liberal woman and longtime professional author who has even been married before (supposedly to a perfectly nice, non-abusive guy) who suddenly decided to buy into an absurd domineering cowboy fantasy, pitched a book about it, and then when the relationship turned out to be horribly abusive (which I am not doubting) did not feel any responsibility to pull the plug on the project or at least try to change its dimensions. The fact that she was victimized by this man (or that she has financial needs) doesn't absolve her of all responsibility whatsoever here.

As far as the advance, ok, well it's an advance. Why should she keep it?

To pay rent

my guess is she's spent it already and can't give it back

I'm still having a hard time with the fact that here is a 43-year-old educated liberal woman and longtime professional author who has even been married before (supposedly to a perfectly nice, non-abusive guy) who suddenly decided to buy into an absurd domineering cowboy fantasy, pitched a book about it, and then when the relationship turned out to be horribly abusive (which I am not doubting) did not feel any responsibility to pull the plug on the project or at least try to change its dimensions.

fucked up situations fuck people up

some of you guys seem to be ignoring that if she doesn't promote the book in some way, this will affect her ability to earn money. this isn't the (sexist imo) "this is about money!" trope that people sometimes push around controversies like these - it's "if I take the moral high road, it will have a material effect on me." people will do/say all sorts of things where their health and well-being are concerned - just renouncing the book and saying "don't buy or read it" would be an honest and moral decision, and would also be working tangibly against self-interest.

imo there's probably also pressures on her besides the economic/publishing ones, as evidenced by the backlash against her blog post (i.e. the same pressures faced by all survivors of rape/abuse)

Mordy I actually think you are cool poster on a lot of topics but please shut the fuck up maybe walk away from this thread