Literary Clusterfucks 2013

Mordy, just go the fuck away. You are a worthless poster.

Yeah, elmo, I was thinking that, too--the word "crazy" is already being pointedly used in that special way, which is always extra-special gross.

I've been watching this discussion unfold, and it all feels so familiar.

Fwiw I said I thought the interview sucked partly b/c of the interviewer, which I can expand on: I thought the intviewer/radio show host led Valdes to some of those unsavory places where she said those things...and all through it I thought Valdes was giggly and light and insubstantial-sounding, and seemed eager to please, that she could be led to agree and to tailor her story to meet with the approval of the host and/or her presumed listeners (being fans of the host's regular show). We know that she DID tailor it because, like I also already posted, she put a different slant on some objectionable things for the radio show than she had in her writing.

The eager to please and agreeable part, like I said I didn't know anything about her BEFORE this, but you don't just get over that when it's been your survival mechanism for some time. I'm okay with just calling this sad and wishing her a healthier life in the future.

I think the thing that's troubling is that the "tailoring the message to the perceived audience" thing came up in the AfterEllen interaction as well, making it semi-difficult to tell as an outsider just hearing about her now if this is something she just does or if this is an expression of a coping mechanism she learned in this abusive relationship, or even worse if she has been in abusive relationships her entire life and this is just the first one she's written about.

Hey Jon, how about I leave after you make good on one of your a thousand threats to quit ilx?

Shut up. You turned this into a needless personal attack.

Did I? I seem to remember reading this before I said anything personal:

"brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster."

I guess it's different when you're the one dishing it.

you know you two could do this with baseball bats irl, it would be so much more fun to watch

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

I didn't bring up an entirely unrelated argument that has already been hashed over months ago to bring it out of the context of the thread though.

xpost

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

Oh okay. So you have an excuse for being the first person to write something unrelated and nasty. xp

Oh stop being so disingenuous, you knew what you were doing with the "race war" comment.

I was going to say that the women posting itt are otm and some people disagreeing with them have come disappointingly close to accusing them of being shrill, hysterical and manipulative for not immediately condemning this clearly shrill, hysterical and manipulative woman, but we may be done with discussing now various nuclear options have been taken

PS I will agree that this book as originally envisaged by the author and publisher sounds completely horrible, and it's depressing that both of them are fixed in a charade of pretending nothing has changed since that, and of course there are many possible reasons why that might be and ways to apportion blame for it (all of which remain depressing)

xxxp in orbit otm again

Jon, as far as I can tell, you jumped into this clusterfuck to score some easy points against me and then tried to back out quickly before anyone noticed. I suspect this is your MO in general. Saying nasty things and then getting hurt when people respond to them.

Dude, nothing I said was "nasty", I just said you were being very frustrating itt.

hi

You didn't give any reason for that. You just said that banging your head against a wall is more productive than talking to me without actually responding to anything I actually said. xp

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:46 PM (3 minutes ago)

omg seriously can you both just stop

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You still haven't answered this btw. You've just decided to make this about a perceived injury to yourself, maybe bc you can't answer my question.

Sitting in a tree.

K

I

S

etc

What if everyone just got up and went for a nice walk

No, I won't stop. I'm sick of everyone just hushing up when ilxors start bullying each other. Mordy pulled out an obviously inflammatory comment to provoke me that had nothing to do with this thread. I'm sick of that treatment. I did nothing to deserve that kind of personal attack.

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

I think, for a lot of people, there is a hierarchy of cruelty:

mental abuse < physical abuse < sexual abuse

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

Yes, you do. You say mean things and then try to cute your way out of them. Why don't you stand up for what you wrote? xp

first comes love

then comes marriage

...

'poisonous cuntstain' is the name of my dog

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both adults posting on a message board. No one is threatening harm. We are having a discussion. If he or I decide that we don't like the conversation we can stop it at any time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Fpl67p5qk

"adults"

My "DJP OTM" comment was intended to convey that he effectively summarized what I was trying to say. If you were actually trying to engage in a real debate with me, I'd bother to address your comments. But as soon as you threw your "race war" comment out, you immediately revealed yourself as a bully with no actual interest in the topic at hand. You're not worthy of my time nor respect and I'm disappointed in myself for engaging with you even this far. I'm going to flat out ignore every single one of your posts on any thread from now on, unless you feel like issuing an apology for your "race war" comment. You knew that was a sensitive issue for me that has already been beaten to death, you brought it up solely to provoke me with no real intention of fostering a legitimate discussion.

I assume we are at the very most both above bar mitzvah age. xp

best new rolling thread

I apologize for my race war comment. Now jon, would you like to respond to my question before 'race war' ever came up? I'll remind you:

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:29 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

ned i love you for that youtube

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

Sorry, that long sentence didn't arrive where it was supposed to, but I think you can figure it out.

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both idiots posting on a message board. No one wants to read our posts. We are having a shitfit. If he or I decide that we don't like the thread we can derail it at any time.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:57 PM

Oh no, this poor thread being derailed.

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

I agree completely but I don't think that's a perspective one is going to arrive at unprompted without having experienced that in a situation they felt they couldn't escape, such as a romantic relationship or sibling/parental abuse. It's one of the reasons why "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" is such a popular little saying.

Defining verbal abuse as saying mean things is sort of like...it's basically the same as defining rape as just wanting to have sex with someone? Or something. I don't know. But it leaves the POWER aspect out, and since power is the whole point, you can't accurately describe the abusive behavior without it.

I'm grateful that we can now have to a public conversation about rape that in general acknowledges that it's not a crime of sex but one of power/dominance. That is a more accurate direction to go in, better for identifying contributing factors, better for prevention, better for diagnosing the social ill, etc. Verbal and emotional abuse have exactly that same quality, and we should be having that kind of conversation about them as well.

Okay now my head is spinning a bit even more because NOW she's deleted the tweet (and FB post) explaining why she deleted the blogpost.