Literary Clusterfucks 2013

and, since I know you are NOT a total dick, it's disheartening

dangling from a tree by their frenulums

Colorful image. Thanks for injecting something very similar to what you say you deplore itt. Bye!

Mordy, your argument about how she is promoting this is really oversimplified and conveniently ignores a lot of levels here. But clearly given your last post direct towards me, I no longer need to respect you or take a single thing you ever type seriously again.

Hey jon, if you want to make an argument that anyone takes 'seriously' why don't you actually make your argument. What am I oversimplifying? What levels am I ignoring?

I understand. $400,000.00 is a lot of money to give back to your publisher, especially in the current publishing industry. Is that the subtlety I have failed to acknowledge?

It seems obvious to me that she was threatened by her publisher and that is drastically affecting the tack she is taking in promoting this book, let alone anything that got bent in her worldview as a result of going through this relationship.

So, it seems we are all talking about a woman who was most likely victimized and abused, who went on to say and do some pretty spectacularly foolish and inappropriate things in regard to her abuse and her abuser. Ilxors, to best of my reading, have mostly been saying that those spectacularly foolish and inappropriate things appear to be both foolish and inappropriate.

This is not to say the poor woman wasn't abused or she was not a victim, but only that it is highly inadvisable at this point to take all those foolish and inappropriate things at the face value that she placed upon them when she said them, wrote them, or did them. And it looks like she is continuing to sell her book based on the idea that it ought to be taken at face value. Which is wrongheaded at best.

imo, there is nothing wrong with saying this. even if it makes a few ilxors angry., because they think this is the same as taunting or ridiculing a victim of abuse for being a victim of abuse. it is more like trying to divide the wheat from the chaff. God knows there is enough chaff in all this to keep us well occupied.

DJP OTM

Fwiw I said I thought the interview sucked partly b/c of the interviewer, which I can expand on: I thought the intviewer/radio show host led Valdes to some of those unsavory places where she said those things...and all through it I thought Valdes was giggly and light and insubstantial-sounding, and seemed eager to please, that she could be led to agree and to tailor her story to meet with the approval of the host and/or her presumed listeners (being fans of the host's regular show). We know that she DID tailor it because, like I also already posted, she put a different slant on some objectionable things for the radio show than she had in her writing.

The eager to please and agreeable part, like I said I didn't know anything about her BEFORE this, but you don't just get over that when it's been your survival mechanism for some time. I'm okay with just calling this sad and wishing her a healthier life in the future.

Like I said above, there is a space between completely declaiming the material and apologizing for it. She doesn't have to repudiate all of it. She also doesn't have to talk about how women are naturally attracted to dominant alpha men during her book promo. There are other ways to promote this material. xxp

I'm not going to bother to respond anything more than that to you Mordy, you're a bully and an asshole who deserves zero respect or time.

imho the issue at hand is not whether we are able to determine some objective history of events here (because we obviously won't), MY concern is that this story doesn't get flattened into "crazy woman is crazy and falsely accuses rape because she wants attention" even though that has been lightly suggested itt and is already making headway into coservative blogs

cry me a river, jon.

Mordy, I wasn't particularly singling you out in my remark, but the problem with you is mostly one of tonality, constant devil's advocate playing about stuff you don't even care about, a misguided belief that you actually have any handle on philosophical logic, and utterly below-the-belt shit like "why wait until tomorrow?" to a clearly exasperated in orbit. And you always have to get the last word, no matter how fucking stupid, pointless or childish.

M White, where on earth did I say I deplored hanging people by their frenulums? Why, I hear tell that it is a most invigorating experience. Pip pip!

My misguided belief that I actually have any handle on philosophical logic?? Now you've cut me to the core.

Mordy, just go the fuck away. You are a worthless poster.

Yeah, elmo, I was thinking that, too--the word "crazy" is already being pointedly used in that special way, which is always extra-special gross.

I've been watching this discussion unfold, and it all feels so familiar.

Fwiw I said I thought the interview sucked partly b/c of the interviewer, which I can expand on: I thought the intviewer/radio show host led Valdes to some of those unsavory places where she said those things...and all through it I thought Valdes was giggly and light and insubstantial-sounding, and seemed eager to please, that she could be led to agree and to tailor her story to meet with the approval of the host and/or her presumed listeners (being fans of the host's regular show). We know that she DID tailor it because, like I also already posted, she put a different slant on some objectionable things for the radio show than she had in her writing.

The eager to please and agreeable part, like I said I didn't know anything about her BEFORE this, but you don't just get over that when it's been your survival mechanism for some time. I'm okay with just calling this sad and wishing her a healthier life in the future.

I think the thing that's troubling is that the "tailoring the message to the perceived audience" thing came up in the AfterEllen interaction as well, making it semi-difficult to tell as an outsider just hearing about her now if this is something she just does or if this is an expression of a coping mechanism she learned in this abusive relationship, or even worse if she has been in abusive relationships her entire life and this is just the first one she's written about.

Hey Jon, how about I leave after you make good on one of your a thousand threats to quit ilx?

Shut up. You turned this into a needless personal attack.

Did I? I seem to remember reading this before I said anything personal:

"brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster."

I guess it's different when you're the one dishing it.

you know you two could do this with baseball bats irl, it would be so much more fun to watch

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

I didn't bring up an entirely unrelated argument that has already been hashed over months ago to bring it out of the context of the thread though.

xpost

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

Oh okay. So you have an excuse for being the first person to write something unrelated and nasty. xp

Oh stop being so disingenuous, you knew what you were doing with the "race war" comment.

I was going to say that the women posting itt are otm and some people disagreeing with them have come disappointingly close to accusing them of being shrill, hysterical and manipulative for not immediately condemning this clearly shrill, hysterical and manipulative woman, but we may be done with discussing now various nuclear options have been taken

PS I will agree that this book as originally envisaged by the author and publisher sounds completely horrible, and it's depressing that both of them are fixed in a charade of pretending nothing has changed since that, and of course there are many possible reasons why that might be and ways to apportion blame for it (all of which remain depressing)

xxxp in orbit otm again

Jon, as far as I can tell, you jumped into this clusterfuck to score some easy points against me and then tried to back out quickly before anyone noticed. I suspect this is your MO in general. Saying nasty things and then getting hurt when people respond to them.

Dude, nothing I said was "nasty", I just said you were being very frustrating itt.

hi

You didn't give any reason for that. You just said that banging your head against a wall is more productive than talking to me without actually responding to anything I actually said. xp

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:46 PM (3 minutes ago)

omg seriously can you both just stop

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You still haven't answered this btw. You've just decided to make this about a perceived injury to yourself, maybe bc you can't answer my question.

Sitting in a tree.

K

I

S

etc

What if everyone just got up and went for a nice walk

No, I won't stop. I'm sick of everyone just hushing up when ilxors start bullying each other. Mordy pulled out an obviously inflammatory comment to provoke me that had nothing to do with this thread. I'm sick of that treatment. I did nothing to deserve that kind of personal attack.

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

I think, for a lot of people, there is a hierarchy of cruelty:

mental abuse < physical abuse < sexual abuse

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

Yes, you do. You say mean things and then try to cute your way out of them. Why don't you stand up for what you wrote? xp

first comes love

then comes marriage

...

'poisonous cuntstain' is the name of my dog