Finally Rich - Chief Keef

j0rdan i'm curious if your position is "yes keef is a rhythmically sloppy rapper but i like that" or if it's closer to deej's

that being said i have always been interested in the idea of someone with some formal chops breaking down what we mean when we talk about 'flow.' it seems like here, even with a bunch of smart peeps who know what they're talking about, there are like 5 different conversations going on, vis a vis what it means to be 'on' or 'off' beat, etc.

i don't think keef going off beat is a particular detriment to his songs (or at least it doesn't bother me) so i can see why deej is trying to say it's not the most relevant criticism (or at least not an argument-winning one). having to listen to the album several times made me pretty impressed with the command keef has over what he does (though i personally find that a total drag sonically, apart from "i don't like", which i've caved to)

j0rdan i'm curious if your position is "yes keef is a rhythmically sloppy rapper but i like that" or if it's closer to deej's

― some dude, Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:22 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i thought we already established that we were talking about two completely different things

or are you still confusing his 'sloppy' style w/ the actual rhythmic pattern he's using

i refuse to read that noisey review

the "two different things" was about keef's rapping style vs. an engineer putting kanye's verse in the wrong place (???????). forget the word "sloppy," let's be nice and say "rhythmically unique," does that work?

no, the difference which i pretty neatly delineated upthread is the diff between his delivery being slightly 'off' the beat & the actual underlying rhythm that he's following which is fairly precise

rhythmically irresponsible

j0rdan i'm curious if your position is "yes keef is a rhythmically sloppy rapper but i like that" or if it's closer to deej's

― some dude, Wednesday, January 2, 2013 12:22 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

honestly i rarely think a rapper is "off-beat"... my mind just doesn't register that stuff often if ever. like, when you used to say that webbie was the most off-beat rapper in the game or w/e i just couldn't hear it. obviously i'm more on deej's side of things as it pertains to keef... i think there's some virtuosity to what he does but mostly i just think he's throwing things out there and messing around a bit. i apply the portrait of him as a cocky and self-directed kid to his music in the sense that he tries a lot of things that most rappers wouldn't/wouldn't think of. i don't necessarily think all of it works but i will say that i think keef is at his least interesting when he's being the most "normal". i also think he's smarter than a large swath of people want to give him credit for but applies to lots of hated on trap rappers.

no, the difference which i pretty neatly delineated upthread is the diff between his delivery being slightly 'off' the beat & the actual underlying rhythm that he's following which is fairly precise

― D-40, Wednesday, January 2, 2013 12:44 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you'll also notice upthread that nobody else has really agreed that this distinction exists no matter how well you think you made your point.

pretty much all of keef's flows have syllables grouped into clear 8th notes, 16th notes, etc. if you transcribed the lyrics and recited them, they'd fit over the beat very neatly. he just doesn't deliver them so they land on the beat neatly. i don't feel like that indicates the existence of an "underlying rhythm," whatever that means.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

that's a typical four four beat. keef's vocals might start on one, or the + of 4, but they might be at the beginning of one, or the end of one, which makes them feel slightly "off" (Gucci, most obviously, did this too).

By 'underlying rhythm' i just mean the actual space w/in the subdivision of the beat that the notes land -- if it lands at the beginning of '1' or the end of '1' its still implying '1'

like, do you understand the concept of swing, at all?

^^this is a sincere q btw

late period Andre 3k is to me a clear example of a rapper going deliberately 'off the beat,' dragging behind and catching up, darting around the 1 with jazzy embellishments. not to say that his way is the only way to do that, but it feels to me like Keef is not doing that at all, there is no swing, it's all pretty rigidly segmented, just not executed with a steady hand.

one of the most interesting flows on finally rich for me is "no tomorrow," where during the verses keef starts his bars before the 1 and finishes before the 2 hits and his next bar before the 3 starts and finishes before the 4 hits... really odd pocket he's in, makes it feel like he can't get his lines out fast enough, there's quite literally "no tomorrow" for him, he's gotta get his raps out asap fuck a beat

We was sittin’ there watchin’ the stage. Waitin’ for the man they called Chief Keef to come out and do his thing. It was me and my four droogs. Them bein’ Peter, Georgio and Dim; Dim being really Dim.

‘Round an hour’d passed and the place was packed straight through to the back. I’d just dropped some dollars for the Best Buy exclusive version of Finally Rich six months back. Now was the time, this was the place. The Harambee House. Chicago. 2012.

I was only there for the first night, see, but them cats at DatPiff just made my life complete. They put out a few mixtapes of all that sound. Keef put out those nights. But you know my type, man. Can’t afford to eat, let alone spend some heavy cash on internet. So I only got the essential. Finally Rich is one disc, makin’ it cheaper than an iPhone. And you only get the best stuff.

Man, the opening beauty of “Love Sosa” It’s like a dream I had: I floated on the River Nile, smokin’ some fresh weed, relaxin’. But I ain’t ever gonna see the Nile anyhow. This track’s as close as I come, and it’s close enough. Best of the best, though, has gotta be “Laughin' to the Bank.” It’s only when you listen to a perfect old rap tune like this that you realize how much "trap rave" is derived from this music. Keef takes it to heaven and back with some style, man. Some richness, daddy. It’s a sad thing his career was cut short by them jaws o’ label fuckery.

Shit, cat. It don’t make a difference. The man produced enough good music to last me a lifetime. This Finally Rich thing’s just another example of the genius of Keef.

--D-40

that was a pretty good Mad TV sketch, props.

actually he's pretty consistently hitting the 1, but finishing each line before the 2 hits, it's so strange.

late period Andre 3k is to me a clear example of a rapper going deliberately 'off the beat,' dragging behind and catching up, darting around the 1 with jazzy embellishments. not to say that his way is the only way to do that, but it feels to me like Keef is not doing that at all, there is no swing, it's all pretty rigidly segmented, just not executed with a steady hand.

― some dude, Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:59 AM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fwiw i think as far as his actual 'swing' goes rtc is right that it's currently at an unresolvable tension b/w 'intentional' & 'side effect of emergence' (if im mischaracterizing he can correct)

but again, w/ this particular example, what was interesting to me rhythmically was where he was deciding to slot each eight note in that 4-beat measure as opposed to where he's trying to place it on each individual beat

you should share these ideas on twitter

im glad weve reached the resolved state of empty zinging

not as happy as the rest of us are

that's a typical four four beat. keef's vocals might start on one, or the + of 4, but they might be at the beginning of one, or the end of one, which makes them feel slightly "off

lol is this not true of all writing? you can enter the line wherever & however, cf Betty Carter's virtuoso phrasing on standards like "The Trolley Song." the question is whether you are singing/rapping either in the rhythm or in a counter-rhythm that fits (toasting I think does a lot of this)

idk it's just incomprehensible to me that a person with as many years listening to and thinking hard about rap PLUS pretty deep jazz engagement can hear that Keef verse and call it "masterful" instead of "terrible"

the twitter suggestion was not a zing

fuckin ODB sounds more in control of where and how he diverges from the beat than Keef imo

This thread is making me want to listen to "Stress" by Organized Konfusion

lol is this not true of all writing? you can enter the line wherever & however, cf Betty Carter's virtuoso phrasing on standards like "The Trolley Song." the question is whether you are singing/rapping either in the rhythm or in a counter-rhythm that fits (toasting I think does a lot of this)

― too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, January 2, 2013 12:24 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

of course, but some entrances are more common than others & the reason this particular example stands out is b/c he's using a pretty unconventional entrance—not sure entirely what else is going on but the effect is both disorienting but controlled.

the fact that we're picking this particular example to death makes it seem like im making a big deal out of nothing so i'm going to assert again that this isn't an argument that this is some game-changing verse or that the world is different now, just that its a cool / novel flow & sounds like he's actually quite aware of how rhythm functions

if we could stop confusing 'rhythm' with 'precision' that would be nice tho

i feel like you're the only person who's really focused on the Big Lean song, most of what's been said about his verse there can be said of many of his songs

keef just sounds entirely offbeat in a bad way on that big lean track, esp compared to most of his tracks

This thread made me put on some Birdman.

this thread is a thing of wonder

keef just sounds entirely offbeat in a bad way on that big lean track

it really sounds like an engineer issue (ie consistently off), otherwise i don't even know.

i feel like you're the only person who's really focused on the Big Lean song, most of what's been said about his verse there can be said of many of his songs

― some dude, Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:50 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

WHICH IS WHY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS

...AT THE SAME DAMN TIME

lmao

most delayed pay-off to a thread ever

Damn we are setting the bar high this year

I'm pretty sure deej has referred to three separate pairs of ideas as "two different things" itt, rhetorical hemiola y'all

it's funny how this "this is technically terrible wtf!" vs. "you just don't get it maaaaaan" argument never gets old

these bitches love hemiola

My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.

lol number none

lol mookie

can we talk about how keef has 19 variations of "like i'm kobe"

http://rapgenius.com/Chief-keef-kobe-lyrics

but never once does a play on words about kobe beef

yeah but the whole song is kobe bryant references, not wordplay variations on the theme right?

well yeah, but like you'd think since he'd wanna switch it up after the 20th time he said Kobe

I read verses like that and then I think of things like "Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Can See" and really I just wonder where it all went wrong (kind of want to blame Black Rob)

whiney did u just actually cite rapgenius

lol, i was hoping ppl would click on some of the great explanations